The Winds of Winter: The Latest Info (updated 10 July 2022)

[butterweedstrover]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

IMHO the distinction between genre writing and “literature” makes little sense.

 

It’s a fine line. People describe it in different ways but there is also an intuitive aspect that a lot of people grasp without putting it into words. 

Mark Lawerance (Prince of Thorn author) made the distinction by considering literary books like this: when someone asks you what it’s about you don’t give a summary of the plot. 

So for example if you read the old man and the sea and someone asked you what it’s about would you could either say:  

a) it’s about an old man catching a fish 

b) it’s about an old man’s decent into madness 

Both are technically correct, but the focus of literary books is less on the objective reality of events and more on the subjective emotional experience. 

IMO the more “literary” books focus on elliptical meaning which is ambiguous while genre fic focuses on objective meaning with the readers central aim being to decipher the practical aspects of the story like the plot, character identity, and motivations. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the one hand, I'm totally with you. I don't really care if 10 people or 10 million people buy TWoW when it comes out, as long as I myself can get a copy. But sometimes I still can't help but wonder what could have been.

Nothing would be bigger than Harry Potter. Those events were a once in a life to experience and being how decentralized/Balkanized entertainment has become we will probably never experience something like that again.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s a fine line. People describe it in different ways but there is also an intuitive aspect that a lot of people grasp without putting it into words. 

Mark Lawerance (Prince of Thorn author) made the distinction by considering literary books like this: when someone asks you what it’s about you don’t give a summary of the plot. 

So for example if you read the old man and the sea and someone asked you what it’s about would you could either say:  

a) it’s about an old man catching a fish 

b) it’s about an old man’s decent into madness 

Both are technically correct, but the focus of literary books is less on the objective reality of events and more on the subjective emotional experience. 

IMO the more “literary” books focus on elliptical meaning which is ambiguous while genre fic focuses on objective meaning with the readers central aim being to decipher the practical aspects of the story like the plot, character identity, and motivations. 

Yes, I see that.

But, so many of the great works are plot, and character, driven, even if they deal with bigger themes as well.

OTOH, some works of literature that largely dispense with plot, like "The Waves" by Virginia Woolf, or almost anything by James Joyce, I find unreadable. 

Yet, my tastes have changed.  I used to find the poetry of Sylvia Plath unreadable.  Now, I think much of it is outstanding.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

On the one hand, I'm totally with you. I don't really care if 10 people or 10 million people buy TWoW when it comes out, as long as I myself can get a copy. 

Yup, it will suck to be everyone else.

[butterweedstrover]

34 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yes, I see that.

But, so many of the great works are plot, and character, driven, even if they deal with bigger themes as well.

OTOH, some works of literature that largely dispense with plot, like "The Waves" by Virginia Woolf, or almost anything by James Joyce, I find unreadable. 

Yet, my tastes have changed.  I used to find the poetry of Sylvia Plath unreadable.  Now, I think much of it is outstanding.

I don’t think it’s an assessment of quality. Literary books can still be thought of as bad and vice versa. 

Every book has a bit of both but I think on average (while I enjoy both) the literary approach has more longevity because the meaning is more open to interpretation being as there is no single correct answer. 

With more plot driven books once the answer is given a lot of the mystery and depth is lost. I mean yeah the author could in a genre fic not give answers but that is considered disappointing. Like who are Jon’s parents. Once you know you know and there isn’t much to think about anymore. The implications are interesting, but again the story has an end point after which much is lost.
 

ASOIAF has had the engagement its had because it’s been unfinished for so long and people can speculate with a lot of material. But that isn’t a sustainable method of storytelling.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yup, it will suck to be everyone else.

It sounds like you're planning to buy all copies. 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well again this is just my impression but authors like Rothfuss typically ridicule metaphorical analysis of their books because they find it pretentious or obnoxious. 
 

Go back a few seconds to see how that interaction started and you (or at least me) get the feeling that he finds deeper literary readings to be… kinda meant for an eighth grade school report, like D&D. 
 

D&D could also subconsciously implement themes into their TV show, but like fantasy authors they find the practical usages of character for drama and plot to triumph over literary concepts. 
 

Which makes the criticism of D&D a little unfair since they are responding the same way a lot of big name authors would (if not a little standoffish). 

I'm sorry. I'm not getting the same impressions that you are, but no worries!  It's probably because I'm an obnoxious, pretentious analyzer! 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I'm sorry. I'm not getting the same impressions that you are, but no worries! /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_cheers.gif It's probably because I'm an obnoxious, pretentious analyzer! /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_thumbsup.gif

Well, I think it would be the other way around.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It sounds like you're planning to buy all copies. 

Just two copies.  Yours and mine.

[MissM]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:19 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

GRRM has said many times that he told D&D the endings for the major characters (which I assume includes Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran), and said both before season 8 and after it that the endings will be more or less the same. It's the road to those endings that will be different. 

Obviously this doesn't include major characters from the books that have an impact on the story (Arianne, Aegon, etc...) but the result will be the same.

And yes, GRRM might have changed his mind on many things, but that's where things stood in 2019.

GRRM has diverged from that position. In repeated statements he has grown to emphasize the differences. He described his book ending as an alternate universe to what we saw on screen. D&D did not accurately adapt GRRM's story according to people GRRM has spoken to that know about his ending. Hibberd said he interviewed GRRM privately over the course of 10 years while working with Entertainment Weekly for the GOT exclusive cover issues. In 2019, he confirmed the main 6 have very different book endings to what we saw on screen. 

GRRM has stated many times that his ending differs to the show. His close friends publicly showed sympathy to how poorly his ending was adapted.

Diana Gabaldson interviewed in the Guardian after Season 8:

"Poor George, I feel very sorry for him," she says. "What happened is that his show caught up with him and he  met with showrunners and he told them what he was planning to do in that book so that they could then write accordingly. Only they didn't write accordingly. They took his stuff and distorted it and wrote their own ending, which wasn't at all what he had in mind but used all the elements he told them."

D&D have a proven track record of altering character arcs to meet whatever end goal they have in mind.

 

[The Winged Griffin]

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/12/23/a-couple-of-rocks/

So it looks like we're gonna go to Casterly Rock at some point in TWOW or ADOS. Not really news, but the fact that he's mentioning and posting about the place in great length when it looks like he's deep into writing Winds is interesting to me. Could it be that he's been writing about CR lately? Possibly in a Cersei chapter? He mentioned having wrapped up a "clutch of chapters" from her POV a few months ago. 

I am probably reading too much into it though, but I can't help it, copium is too good.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

26 minutes ago, The Winged Griffin said:

I am probably reading too much into it though, but I can't help it, copium is too good.

I mean, I don't think it's likely that he woke up in the morning and randomly decided to write a long blog post about Casterly Rock. So it has to be something, whatever it is.

[Gilbert Green]

7 hours ago, The Winged Griffin said:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/12/23/a-couple-of-rocks/

So it looks like we're gonna go to Casterly Rock at some point in TWOW or ADOS. Not really news, but the fact that he's mentioning and posting about the place in great length when it looks like he's deep into writing Winds is interesting to me. Could it be that he's been writing about CR lately? Possibly in a Cersei chapter? He mentioned having wrapped up a "clutch of chapters" from her POV a few months ago. 

I am probably reading too much into it though, but I can't help it, copium is too good.

I posted on this in general section.  It tells us nothing specific about Winds, except that it is nice he is spending time thinking about the future story and where it is headed.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, The Winged Griffin said:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/12/23/a-couple-of-rocks/

So it looks like we're gonna go to Casterly Rock at some point in TWOW or ADOS. Not really news, but the fact that he's mentioning and posting about the place in great length when it looks like he's deep into writing Winds is interesting to me. Could it be that he's been writing about CR lately? Possibly in a Cersei chapter? He mentioned having wrapped up a "clutch of chapters" from her POV a few months ago. 

I am probably reading too much into it though, but I can't help it, copium is too good.

I like the comparison to Gibraltar.  I guess the dwarven strongholds in LOTR are similar.

Edited December 26, 2022 by SeanF

[The Winged Griffin]

One thing to note here is that he also posted an image of him with a monkey on his back, which he frequently used when he talked about progress on Dance, and then Winds way back in 2009-2013. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Winged Griffin said:

One thing to note here is that he also posted an image of him with a monkey on his back, which he frequently used when he talked about progress on Dance, and then Winds way back in 2009-2013. 

Yes, he used to mention Kong and Son of Kong a lot. Good times. 

[Melifeather]

On 12/24/2022 at 4:50 AM, MissM said:

GRRM has diverged from that position. In repeated statements he has grown to emphasize the differences. He described his book ending as an alternate universe to what we saw on screen. D&D did not accurately adapt GRRM's story according to people GRRM has spoken to that know about his ending. Hibberd said he interviewed GRRM privately over the course of 10 years while working with Entertainment Weekly for the GOT exclusive cover issues. In 2019, he confirmed the main 6 have very different book endings to what we saw on screen. 

GRRM has stated many times that his ending differs to the show. His close friends publicly showed sympathy to how poorly his ending was adapted.

Diana Gabaldson interviewed in the Guardian after Season 8:

"Poor George, I feel very sorry for him," she says. "What happened is that his show caught up with him and he  met with showrunners and he told them what he was planning to do in that book so that they could then write accordingly. Only they didn't write accordingly. They took his stuff and distorted it and wrote their own ending, which wasn't at all what he had in mind but used all the elements he told them."

D&D have a proven track record of altering character arcs to meet whatever end goal they have in mind.

 

I think the show borrowed heavily from fan theories from this very forum. George shared character arcs so that the show wouldn't go that route and spoil the story for book readers. Take Stannis for example. Did it seem to you that he was being set up for a defeat camped out in the snow outside Winterfell? Or do book readers expect Stannis to win and take Winterfell? I do, however, expect that Brienne will get to kill Stannis, because that scenario was setup long ago when she pledged her sword to Lady Catelyn.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I think the show borrowed heavily from fan theories from this very forum. George shared character arcs so that the show wouldn't go that route and spoil the story for book readers. Take Stannis for example. Did it seem to you that he was being set up for a defeat camped out in the snow outside Winterfell? Or do book readers expect Stannis to win and take Winterfell? I do, however, expect that Brienne will get to kill Stannis, because that scenario was setup long ago when she pledged her sword to Lady Catelyn.

If Stannis burns Shireen, it could only be because the Others have breached the Wall, and the future of humanity is at stake.

One change that had huge consequences, was shifting Tyrion from being a villain to a (alleged) hero.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by SeanF

[hnv]

Well I hope he leaves re

On 12/26/2022 at 1:32 AM, The Winged Griffin said:

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/12/23/a-couple-of-rocks/

So it looks like we're gonna go to Casterly Rock at some point in TWOW or ADOS. Not really news, but the fact that he's mentioning and posting about the place in great length when it looks like he's deep into writing Winds is interesting to me. Could it be that he's been writing about CR lately? Possibly in a Cersei chapter? He mentioned having wrapped up a "clutch of chapters" from her POV a few months ago. 

I am probably reading too much into it though, but I can't help it, copium is too good.

The Rock sounds like a very gloomy place. Almost no natural light enters the inner halls and it must get very damp 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, hnv said:

Well I hope he leaves re

The Rock sounds like a very gloomy place. Almost no natural light enters the inner halls and it must get very damp 

There are probably lightwells and ventilation shafts.

The underground cities of Anatolia seem to have been quite comfortable.