House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Didn't Bryan Cogman say that they wanted Ramsay's atrocities happen to a primary character instead of a secondary one, like Jeyne Poole? They thought it would have a bigger impact on viewers. 

 

Ramsay had already done enough, prior to that point, to establish that he was a piece of scum.  Admittedly, Benioff described him as a “badass”.  

What makes the corresponding parts of the book work so much better is that he’s a figure of complete and utter terror to Theon/Reek.  

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Ramsay had already done enough, prior to that point, to establish that he was a piece of scum.  Admittedly, Benioff described him as a “badass”.  

What makes the corresponding parts of the book work so much better is that he’s a figure of complete and utter terror to Theon/Reek.  

Yes, the problem is when the rape's effects are on Theon.

The effect would have been lessoned if we'd followed Theon's place as a man in a house of atrocities.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Ramsay had already done enough, prior to that point, to establish that he was a piece of scum.  Admittedly, Benioff described him as a “badass”.  

What makes the corresponding parts of the book work so much better is that he’s a figure of complete and utter terror to Theon/Reek.  

I don't know why it didn't occur to the showrunners that messing up several plotlines at the same time would hurt the show in the long run. 

[C.T. Phipps]

45 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know why it didn't occur to the showrunners that messing up several plotlines at the same time would hurt the show in the long run. 

I think they were past caring. Though I think they severely underestimated the response to Sansa's rape and actually were offended by it given they made a deleted scene where Arya watches the play reproduce it, only to mock the offended audiences.

[The Bard of Banefort]

33 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think they were past caring. Though I think they severely underestimated the response to Sansa's rape and actually were offended by it given they made a deleted scene where Arya watches the play reproduce it, only to mock the offended audiences.

Yeah, that was one of the things that really made me dislike D&D (and is why I don’t think Cogman should be lumped in with them, despite writing the script for Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken). Cogman tried to be very conciliatory about the whole thing and seemed to recognize that the people who were most upset were SA survivors. D&D seemed indignant that anyone would criticize them (up until then they’d only been showered with praise; any complaints were easily ascribed to a handful of “prudes”). That said, the fact that they have refused to ever defend their decision in interviews definitely makes their indignance seem all the more childish. 

Plus, they got off easy—S5 aired in 2015. MeToo was in 2017, right after S7. The wave of criticism was significantly tame compared to what they would have gotten if the episode premiered only a few years later.

[The Bard of Banefort]

New stills: 

They’re good pictures, but it seems like they’re recycling most of the promo material now. I get it, they don’t want to give too much away, but still.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

In the latest promo video, GRRM refers to Corlys’s grandfather as being the previous Master of Ships and as having a similar name. Of course, Corlys’s grandfather was Daemon, so I assume GRRM is getting mixed up here and the “similar name” refers to Corwyn Velaryon. Fire and Blood only states that Daemon’s sons were Corwyn, Jorgen and Victor, and separately that Corlys’s father was the eldest, which left us to assume Corwyn was Corlys’s father, but there was always the off chance that Daemon’s sons were not listed by order of age. Last I checked, the Wiki didn’t list Corwyn as Corlys’s father, but to me this video confirms that he was. 

You make the mistake of assuming Corwyn, Jorgen, and Victor were Daemon Velaryon's only sons. But that is never said. They are merely the sons who show Jaehaerys the ships and visit with him on Dragonstone.

Daemon could have had elder sons who don't bother with Jaehaerys at all and who aren't even on Driftmark at that time but rather with their father in KL.

Daemon is already pretty old at that time, so his eldest son could have gotten him plenty of granddaughters already - we just know that Corlys is the eldest son of the eldest son.

It is the same with Larissa Velaryon - it kind of makes sense to imagine her as a daughter of Daemon but she could just as well also be a daughter of one of his brothers.

[Lord Varys]

And, guys - this isn't a GoT/D&D thread. I guess one can touch upon the other show occasionally, but we shouldn't discuss it here in great(er) detail.

[C.T. Phipps]

Well the HBO-verse is certainly slightly different from canon and a few changes here and there won't bother George.

He (helped?) wrote the Game of Thrones RPG after all.

Which I kind of wish was canon or adapted into a novel.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, guys - this isn't a GoT/D&D thread. I guess one can touch upon the other show occasionally, but we shouldn't discuss it here in great(er) detail.

They haven’t really given us much else to talk about yet. We had a rousing debate about sexual assault. That’s basically all the coverage right now.

[C.T. Phipps]

I have high confidence this is going to be a show that is going to succeed and I have the belief it will do extremely well. However, I also note that I have some thoughts that may or may not prove an impediment to it being as big as GOT.

1. There's going to be no obvious good guy even if they do try to make Rhaenyra into the chief protagonist. She does a lot of reprehensible stuff and once burned, twice shy with a lot of people looking for the ultimate feminist fantasy heroine. We also know that she does meet a gruesome end without ever ruling a united Westeros.

2. The fact the story is completed will hurt the show because while Martin wasn't completed, that actually gave the show a boost as you couldn't go donw to Waldenbooks (ah that's a memory) and pick up a copy to finish it.

3. The story is significantly more complicated at the start with kings, succession, plots, and counterplots. My wife, who is a GOT only fan, was wondering who the Hightowers and Velaryons are. Getting the first fifteen or twenty years out of the way in the first season is a bit of a chore.

4. I worry about the massive amounts of bad will to the ending of GOT and often wonder if Snow wasn't meant to be a "fix fic" for it like X-men: Days of Future Past. A lot of people who I know to be fantasy superfans have told me they don't want to watch it. I really hope they change their minds on this.

5. I think casting Matt Smith to bring in Doctor Who fans was a good choice and hope his use in fanservice will also be good for the female audience as the show has to walk a careful balance between, "not offending female viewers" and "a show that thrived on its reputation for being the sexiest thing on TV."

6. I'm not sure what adding "Aegon was afraid of White Walkers" will do to help the show because the White Walker threat will play no role in the Dance of the Dragon and was a wet fart in S8. Which is a shame.

7. I do hope they keep all of the dirty scandalous and bloody things from the books, which spoilers seem to be indicating, which is a good thing as this is the kind of series that does thrive on that kind of controversy.

8. Olivia Cooke is really a kind of terrible choice for "old alicent" and frankly I thought she was playing young Alicent before I realized otherwise.

9. I'm going to be interested in what sort of role that Rhaenys will be playing in this story. Really, her sour grapes over being passed over as queen is something that adds a lot to Rhaenyra's story but I'll be interested how they expand her opinions on certain things like the fact her grandchildren, well, are not her blood. I do think her heroic death will go over well, though.

10. I really was hoping Blood and Cheese would be the finale but we can wait on that I guess.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I have high confidence this is going to be a show that is going to succeed and I have the belief it will do extremely well. However, I also note that I have some thoughts that may or may not prove an impediment to it being as big as GOT.

1. There's going to be no obvious good guy even if they do try to make Rhaenyra into the chief protagonist. She does a lot of reprehensible stuff and once burned, twice shy with a lot of people looking for the ultimate feminist fantasy heroine. We also know that she does meet a gruesome end without ever ruling a united Westeros.

2. The fact the story is completed will hurt the show because while Martin wasn't completed, that actually gave the show a boost as you couldn't go donw to Waldenbooks (ah that's a memory) and pick up a copy to finish it.

3. The story is significantly more complicated at the start with kings, succession, plots, and counterplots. My wife, who is a GOT only fan, was wondering who the Hightowers and Velaryons are. Getting the first fifteen or twenty years out of the way in the first season is a bit of a chore.

4. I worry about the massive amounts of bad will to the ending of GOT and often wonder if Snow wasn't meant to be a "fix fic" for it like X-men: Days of Future Past. A lot of people who I know to be fantasy superfans have told me they don't want to watch it. I really hope they change their minds on this.

5. I think casting Matt Smith to bring in Doctor Who fans was a good choice and hope his use in fanservice will also be good for the female audience as the show has to walk a careful balance between, "not offending female viewers" and "a show that thrived on its reputation for being the sexiest thing on TV."

6. I'm not sure what adding "Aegon was afraid of White Walkers" will do to help the show because the White Walker threat will play no role in the Dance of the Dragon and was a wet fart in S8. Which is a shame.

7. I do hope they keep all of the dirty scandalous and bloody things from the books, which spoilers seem to be indicating, which is a good thing as this is the kind of series that does thrive on that kind of controversy.

8. Olivia Cooke is really a kind of terrible choice for "old alicent" and frankly I thought she was playing young Alicent before I realized otherwise.

9. I'm going to be interested in what sort of role that Rhaenys will be playing in this story. Really, her sour grapes over being passed over as queen is something that adds a lot to Rhaenyra's story but I'll be interested how they expand her opinions on certain things like the fact her grandchildren, well, are not her blood. I do think her heroic death will go over well, though.

10. I really was hoping Blood and Cheese would be the finale but we can wait on that I guess.

2. I never got into theory crafting on the show, and because of that I think I underestimated how big of a role that played in the show’s appeal (I also underestimated how invested people were in the WW). I’m not sure how it’ll affect HOTD.

5. No disrespect to Matt, but he’s not really what I think of when I think “sexy.” That said, women will be attracted to anything (just think of all the thirsty fan girls drooling over the Hound), so it’s not a big impediment. I think the bigger issue is that there are no huge names attached to this show yet. Matt Smith is beloved among Dr. Who fans, but he’s not that well-known outside of that.

6. I expect we’ll get lots of memes out of this.

8. Yeah, it’s some sexist bullshit honestly. They cast a 27-year-old to play a grandmother. But I’m willing to bet most people won’t care. 

 

This show could be big, but I don’t think it will ever be as big as GOT (if I remember correctly, GRRM said the same thing once). You can’t catch lightning in a bottle twice. The next “cultural phenomenon” will be something completely different and unexpected, as it always is. 

[butterweedstrover]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

8. Yeah, it’s some sexist bullshit honestly. They cast a 27-year-old to play a grandmother. But I’m willing to bet most people won’t care. 

They did the same thing in the Last Kingdom with Aelswith. Actually I think the actress was younger than the actress who played her daughter. I don't think people really cared when that show was still being released. 

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This show could be big, but I don’t think it will ever be as big as GOT (if I remember correctly, GRRM said the same thing once). You can’t catch lightning in a bottle twice. The next “cultural phenomenon” will be something completely different and unexpected, as it always is. 

Its impossible it will be that big due to competition. The market is oversaturated with high quality TV, not just fantasy. 

[butterweedstrover]

One of the new stills leans into the 'Sapphic' vibes Alicent's younger actress said would exit between her and Rhaenyra. 

Don't know how I feel about that, but I like how they are boosting the relationship between the two rather than making them spiteful women who are jealous of each other.  

[Denam_Pavel]

45 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. There's going to be no obvious good guy even if they do try to make Rhaenyra into the chief protagonist. She does a lot of reprehensible stuff and once burned, twice shy with a lot of people looking for the ultimate feminist fantasy heroine. We also know that she does meet a gruesome end without ever ruling a united Westeros.

There is Corlys. The one that speaks against overrewarding the two traitor dragonseeds, then later against judging all bastards by their actions, then becomes a voice for peace and reconciliation to Aegon II. If anything this story has more of a moral victor that serves as throughline for the story then GoT did. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They haven’t really given us much else to talk about yet.

The dragons are cool... I guess.

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. The fact the story is completed will hurt the show because while Martin wasn't completed, that actually gave the show a boost as you couldn't go donw to Waldenbooks (ah that's a memory) and pick up a copy to finish it.

I agree . it'll make the showrunners and writer's job all the more difficult .. this could actually be good though . I think if they can write compelling dialogues for the first season , we can be sure we won't be left with cock jokes for the rest of the show... I mean the main reason the first half of GoT was so good was because the dialogues (which basically shape the characters ) were from the books . otherwise , cinematography was far better in the second half of the show and music had always been top notch. 

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

8. Olivia Cooke is really a kind of terrible choice for "old alicent" and frankly I thought she was playing young Alicent before I realized otherwise.

God , I still can't believe they have cast an Alicent who is 1 year older than AegonII actor . but it may be that Bard's right ... people may not care . especially that having seen Olivia Cooke in Vanity Fair , I think she has the talent for a great Alicent . 

 

all in all , I'm hopeful .. or I want to be .. lately many shows were glamorous without compelling storytelling .. 

[C.T. Phipps]

There is in fact actually a classical fact about casting younger mothers than their sons. It actually was extremely common with Shakespeare.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayingGertrude

They always prefer a young hot girl to play Hamlet's mom.

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

One of the new stills leans into the 'Sapphic' vibes Alicent's younger actress said would exit between her and Rhaenyra. 

Don't know how I feel about that, but I like how they are boosting the relationship between the two rather than making them spiteful women who are jealous of each other.  

Well, in one of the interviews from a few weeks ago they said Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra’s freedom and wildness, so that kind of is what they’re doing.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

 2. I never got into theory crafting on the show, and because of that I think I underestimated how big of a role that played in the show’s appeal (I also underestimated how invested people were in the WW). I’m not sure how it’ll affect HOTD.

The White Walkers have never been a big appeal for me as a book reader first as the politics as well as moral ambiguity was pretty new to me as a "Five Dollar Paperback" fantasy reader in the late Nineties. However, Game of Thrones did a fairly grand job realizing them on screen and the Mystery Box speculation about everything from R+J=L to what will happen next after each political move kept the show in constant state of tension. I also give credit to the book reading fandom of GOT, which I never thought I'd say about any fandom given the toxicity these days, that they were pretty good about keeping theri Red Wedding friends unspoiled.

Hopefully, everyone can keep RHAENYRA DIES from the show's fans.

Quote

5. No disrespect to Matt, but he’s not really what I think of when I think “sexy.” That said, women will be attracted to anything (just think of all the thirsty fan girls drooling over the Hound), so it’s not a big impediment. I think the bigger issue is that there are no huge names attached to this show yet. Matt Smith is beloved among Dr. Who fans, but he’s not that well-known outside of that.

Matt Smith is what apparently qualifies as a very good example of Western pretty boy, even though he's a good decade on from his Doctor Who days. I'm a bit amused about the joking about all of his nude scenes but do actually hope that he appeals to an audience that feels a little burned by Game of Throne's perceived (real or imaginary) misogyny problem. I don't think of him as nearly the same level of a household name as Sean Bean and would have expected a Jon Nobel or other Lord of the Rings alumni to pad the cast resume for a season with Viserys as a good pick for it. However, Game of Thrones needed to make a big splash with Season 1 while House of the Dragon is already well-known.

Quote

6. I expect we’ll get lots of memes out of this.

The rumored Alicent Hightower foot fetish is one I predict will be the first big meme, oddly enough.

Quote

This show could be big, but I don’t think it will ever be as big as GOT (if I remember correctly, GRRM said the same thing once). You can’t catch lightning in a bottle twice. The next “cultural phenomenon” will be something completely different and unexpected, as it always is. 

There's a lot of prestige TV out there and people want more Game of Thrones as the success of the Witcher and Wheel of Time (despite that show's manifest failures) will mean it's guaranteed to be a big success. But I don't see it becoming a phenomenon again. I am comfortable in making a betting house prediction that between House of the Dragon and Rings of Power that HBO has got this on lockdown despite the latter's larger budget. I also predict that people are going to watch both if they can afford it.

Quote

I agree . it'll make the showrunners and writer's job all the more difficult .. this could actually be good though . I think if they can write compelling dialogues for the first season , we can be sure we won't be left with cock jokes for the rest of the show... I mean the main reason the first half of GoT was so good was because the dialogues (which basically shape the characters ) were from the books . otherwise , cinematography was far better in the second half of the show and music had always been top notch. 

Yeah, George R.R. Martin has given a treatise of events as well as a lot of good "establishing character moments" that let us know who these people are so I have no problem believing fans will love Rhaenyra, Daemon, Alicent, and others. However, I also note that there's not a lot of dialogue. I also am one of the people who believes George probably gave a similar treatise about events to D&D for Game of Thrones and that wasn't enough.

Quote

There is Corlys. The one that speaks against overrewarding the two traitor dragonseeds, then later against judging all bastards by their actions, then becomes a voice for peace and reconciliation to Aegon II. If anything this story has more of a moral victor that serves as throughline for the story then GoT did. 

Honestly, I've never liked Corlys from the books and it's kind of fascinating that George R.R Martin seems to absolutely love the character and HBO has enough faith in him to debate his own spin off from the beginning (perhaps on the strength of the actor). Really, I expect the audience to come to loathe Corlys because he's always switching sides.

Quote

God , I still can't believe they have cast an Alicent who is 1 year older than AegonII actor . but it may be that Bard's right ... people may not care . especially that having seen Olivia Cooke in Vanity Fair , I think she has the talent for a great Alicent . 

Yeah, I have no issue with Olivia Cooke's acting and hope this is her career-making role.

Edited August 6, 2022 by C.T. Phipps