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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Since I heard some folks not so much liking Rhaenyra's reluctance at war ... even without the prophetic stuff as a hidden motivational layer. Rhaenyra is pissed about the betrayal in the book, yes, but she isn't a hawk. She makes a peace offer during her coronation ceremony, and she and Daemon both don't actually want an all-out war during the Black Council session.

I think the writers of the show want a slow and careful escalation of things, both for Alicent and Rhaenyra (and the boys, too, if Aemond and Aegon are any indication). Unlike in the book, Luke's death is not going to break Rhaenyra, apparently, but push her more into total war territory ... Blood and Cheese will do the same for Alicent. Remember that she is going to be a witness/participant in the entire affair.

The show might quickly reach a point where Rhaenyra has forgotten all her good intentions about not ripping the Seven Kingdoms into pieces. Just as Alicent's only goal in life might be to see Rhaenyra and her family dead ... with those later peace overtures being nothing dishonest suggestions.

Oddly enough, Daemon being the guy nobody ever trusted with 'the serious secrets' of House Targaryen could actually give him an arc where he questions himself and his life's decisions to the point where he ends up making the stupid decision he makes in the end.

Thinking more about Baela/Rhaena:

Rather than having Corlys go on the entire time about that stupid/pointless Aegon-Jaehaera match (at a time when neither Aegon nor Jaehaera are the actual heirs of their respective parent - nor does anybody know where the hell Jaehaera is or whether she is still alive) I think he could suggest to Rhaenyra that they offer Baela or Rhaena's hand in marriage to young Daeron the Daring ... in exchange for him bending the knee, etc.

George never bothered to make a betrothal or marriage for him - which is actually quite odd since one would imagine that Ormund Hightower would have been rather keen to hook him up with one of his daughters or one of Otto's granddaughters through his sons.

Of course this would then not happen, but it seems like the wiser and more obvious suggestion at that particular time.

Another thing that could have repercussions in the show is Aemond's weirdo romance with Alys Rivers. The guy promised to marry a Baratheon girl ... but doesn't. Now, we all know that nobody punishing the Baratheons for Luke's death is odd ... but so is Borros not reacting to there being no Targaryen wedding for any of his girls. After Aemond falls for the witch and Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne it would make sense that the Baratheons want to make amends. They not exactly that far away from a bunch of very large dragons.

One way to deal with that in the show could be to have the Stormlords bend the knees to Rhaenyra for a time, a deal being sealed with one of the Four Storms being betrothed to one of Rhaenyra's sons ... Joffrey Velaryon, say (they can cut the weirdo Manderly betrothal easily enough). Borros would then go back to neutral/switch back to the Greens after Tumbleton and/or the Storming of the Dragonpit.

Isn’t the implication that Borros is secretly a coward? He avoided almost the entire war by pursuing Dornish outlaws instead.

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11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I personally think it would work well for some of the Ironborn families to be different races. The Greyjoys would need to remain white, but the presence of salt wives/thralls could allow for a lot flexibility.

Race-bending Dunk would definitely feel like pandering, since there have already been graphic novels and licensed art of him (and since he’s Brienne’s ancestor). But I suppose it’s possible. The smarter thing would be for HBO to start developing more shows that already feature POC characters as they were envisioned, but I guess that requires too much effort. 

Just pointing out we can have all the diversity we want from King's Landing due to the fact it is a port city and melting pot as things go.

Dunk could be due to being from Flea Bottom.

Not to say he should be.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Isn’t the implication that Borros is secretly a coward? He avoided almost the entire war by pursuing Dornish outlaws instead.

Yes, of course. And they certainly could go with that, too. But I kind of dislike the general tendency in the book that characters pop up to disappear for a season or so, only to become important again. Borros and his family are there for a rather pivotal moment in the war ... and they pretend they had nothing to do with anything until the end.

It could also be a way to utilize those Four Storms some more. Have one girl be betrothed to Aemond, another securing the Velaryon betrothal, with Cassandra thinking she secured Aegon II in the end ... while poor Maris gets nothing at all, of course.

Thinking about it - such a deal could be a kind of precursor to Tumbleton - make some of the other betrayers there Stormlords. In the book we have those Blackwater guys there who might be technically Crownlanders but could easily be Stormlanders in the show. Folks who do not agree with their cowardly lord sucking up to the false queen now.

The idea that Sara Snow might actually marry Jace and accompany him to Dragonstone would be a similar way to keep a Stark element in the story.

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they could switch Cregan with lord Dustin and keep him alive  and well during the war before arrival of his new army and his later march to Kingslanding. and they'll have a prominent Stark element throughout the story. Jace and Sara's marriage would be too much like Robb and Talisa if they go back to Dragonstone together. not to mention , it'll ruin Jace's role as peacemaker between Corlys and Rhaenyra . (in fact, he'd be quite the opposite of his counter part in the book) . secret marriage or hooking up in front of the Heart Tree just for the sake of romance is another matter. 

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32 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

they could switch Cregan with lord Dustin and keep him alive  and well during the war before arrival of his new army and his later march to Kingslanding. and they'll have a prominent Stark element throughout the story. Jace and Sara's marriage would be too much like Robb and Talisa if they go back to Dragonstone together. not to mention , it'll ruin Jace's role as peacemaker between Corlys and Rhaenyra . (in fact, he'd be quite the opposite of his counter part in the book) . secret marriage or hooking up in front of the Heart Tree just for the sake of romance is another matter. 

I think Roderick Dustin is too iconic a character to mess with his ending ... although they certainly could turn him into Cregan's Stark uncle or something along those lines. They could keep the whole old plot about the uncle trying to rule him, so Cregan could just let him out of the dungeon to die gloriously in battle.

The story seems to have little romance as it is, so Jace marrying Sara could certainly work in this regard. And it won't be like Robb since it would just rock the weirdo incest matches to a point ... but not result in something like the Red Wedding.

And as I said - I find Corlys' anger with Rhaenyra over Rhaenys' death childish. They should drop this. She died in battle, most likely the way she wanted to, so no reason to blame anyone for this.

However, if Jace ended up discarding Corys' granddaughter that could anger the old man, and rightfully so.

As I said - if the leaks are to be trusted we won't get a Rhaenyra who collapses once she learns of Luke's death, so she won't be a passive leader up until Jace's death. Hell, if I were writing things I'd have Rhaenyra and Rhaenys go to Rook's Rest together, and have Rhaenys sacrifice herself so Rhaenyra can get away. They could even include Helaena into the trap there, dropping her getting mad with grief and giving her desire to avenge herself and her son there. They could even have Jace on Vermax and Baela on Moondancer there.

I don't think the show is going to fly with George's take of Rhaenyra never flying her dragon into battle.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Isn’t the implication that Borros is secretly a coward? He avoided almost the entire war by pursuing Dornish outlaws instead.

There's a question between prudence and cowardice. One might argue he rather rightly saw this conflict as largely being none of his business and the people who made promises did not live up to them.

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11 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

There's a question between prudence and cowardice. One might argue he rather rightly saw this conflict as largely being none of his business and the people who made promises did not live up to them.

He agreed to join the war in exchange for betrothing Aemond to one of his daughters. He made it his business.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Roderick Dustin is too iconic a character to mess with his ending ... although they certainly could turn him into Cregan's Stark uncle or something along those lines. They could keep the whole old plot about the uncle trying to rule him, so Cregan could just let him out of the dungeon to die gloriously in battle.

The story seems to have little romance as it is, so Jace marrying Sara could certainly work in this regard. And it won't be like Robb since it would just rock the weirdo incest matches to a point ... but not result in something like the Red Wedding.

And as I said - I find Corlys' anger with Rhaenyra over Rhaenys' death childish. They should drop this. She died in battle, most likely the way she wanted to, so no reason to blame anyone for this.

However, if Jace ended up discarding Corys' granddaughter that could anger the old man, and rightfully so.

As I said - if the leaks are to be trusted we won't get a Rhaenyra who collapses once she learns of Luke's death, so she won't be a passive leader up until Jace's death. Hell, if I were writing things I'd have Rhaenyra and Rhaenys go to Rook's Rest together, and have Rhaenys sacrifice herself so Rhaenyra can get away. They could even include Helaena into the trap there, dropping her getting mad with grief and giving her desire to avenge herself and her son there. They could even have Jace on Vermax and Baela on Moondancer there.

I don't think the show is going to fly with George's take of Rhaenyra never flying her dragon into battle.

the problem with Jace and Sara's marriage out in the open is that it'll change Jace's role . it'll turn him from the rational one among the Blacks into the lovestruck who destroys the one firm alliance they have . they could include the romance or a well hidden secret marriage if they want romance in the story so much . Or give all the romances to Baella who could be with Jace at first and turn to Alyn after his death . and with that, I'm done speculating for today:) 

 

another thought... I don't know if you guys have watched LML's latest videos  but in his latest stream he and two other youtubers were talking about Daemon  .and none of them cared or considered Nettles being Daemon's daughter considering that they might not have been in a sexual relationship. a view we had here in some of discussions   . so , what are the thoughts ? are we reading too much into the text or are the youtubers not paying enough attention to the book ?

Edited by EggBlue
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23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

There's a question between prudence and cowardice. One might argue he rather rightly saw this conflict as largely being none of his business and the people who made promises did not live up to them.

yeah ... Borros is basically Walder Frey of the story . 

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6 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yeah ... Borros is basically Walder Frey of the story . 

Up to and including the fact that he abused guest right, albeit keeping to the letter of it if not the spirit.
 

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Anyone some observations from the spoilers and creator comments:

My thoughts on possible changes and interpretations
 

Spoiler

1. They're definitely trying to play this as a tragedy between Rhaenyra and Alicent's friendship going horribly wrong. I never got that from the books as I'm pretty sure Rhaenyra never really saw her as anything other than a gold digging interloper.

2. We are going to be covering decades in the first few parts of the show and see the degeneration of events into cold hostility.

3. Rhaenys is seemingly the party responsible for attempting to cultivate Rhaenyra as having had bastards while Corys is more ambivalent about the whole thing. Which is interesting and a nice role reversal re: gender roles.

4. They're definitely keeping that Rhaenyra's eldest children are bastards.

5. The sex scenes seem to be Daemon Targaryen, Rhaenyra with Cole, and a few other select ones.

6. Aegon II is a rapist, which is what was expected. We're definitely going with Greens as scheming pieces of shit.

7. The season will be ending with the dragonfight over the Stormlands. Presumably Season 2 Episode 1 will be Blood and Cheese.

8. Rhaenyra not responding to the offer of Alicent that she can keep Dragonstone and Driftmark with, "Fuck you and ALL of your cronies" is OOC to the max. It is HER throne.

9. They're going hard on fear of the Others, which sounds kind of hilarious now that we have Season 8 making such light of them in their final climax.

10. I do admit I am looking most forward to the dinner banquet that looks to be incredibly trashy Jerry Springer fun.

 

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6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

He agreed to join the war in exchange for betrothing Aemond to one of his daughters. He made it his business.

Really don't know what George was thinking there. I mean, yes, I always rant about why nobody ever torched Storm's End after that ... but that's just a rather extreme take on this. Borros was closely related to the Velaryons. And Luke's death reflected very badly on him. Even if we grant him being illiterate and not the sharpest knife in the box ... anyone with half a brain would have tried to make some amends after that. Would fear that a couple of dragons would show up the next day and torch his place.

He would reach out to Dragonstone, offering his condolences, stressing that he had nothing to do with what happened, couldn't stop it (even if those were all lies he would still say them), and he would certainly say that this ugly thing causes him to reconsider his allegiances. Say, offering neutrality in exchange for not being torched.

More so, as I said, after nothing came of the Aemond match ... presumably because Aemond didn't pursue it.

Keep in mind that Aemond quickly becomes Prince Regent and things look very good for the Greens until Aemond is fooled by the Harrenhal ruse. Surely that would have been the time when Borros and Aemond's betrothed would have approached the man ... if they were still keen to go through with this marriage.

When news about Alys Rivers nonsense reach folks and Rhaenyra takes KL then Borros looks even more suicidal if he never tries to make amends for this. Rhaenyra could certainly reject any peace offers he might make ... but that he doesn't even try is completely unrealistic.

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

the problem with Jace and Sara's marriage out in the open is that it'll change Jace's role . it'll turn him from the rational one among the Blacks into the lovestruck who destroys the one firm alliance they have . they could include the romance or a well hidden secret marriage if they want romance in the story so much . Or give all the romances to Baella who could be with Jace at first and turn to Alyn after his death . and with that, I'm done speculating for today:)

Sure enough, they could also tone it down, or change it around somewhat. But I don't think we should imagine the whole thing as a big crisis. In the book Rhaenyra and Corlys are both dealing with their grief in their own way and say some angry words to each other. Neither truly intends to cut ties with the other.

I think giving Jace a romance and a desire of his own could only add depth to the character. It wouldn't diminish his character or role, especially not if he were still the guy who came up with the plan to legitimize the Hull boys.

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

another thought... I don't know if you guys have watched LML's latest videos  but in his latest stream he and two other youtubers were talking about Daemon  .and none of them cared or considered Nettles being Daemon's daughter without considering that they might not have been in a sexual relationship. a view we had here in some of discussions   . so , what are the thoughts ? are we reading too much into the text or are the youtubers not paying enough attention to the book ?

If you go by only TPatQ and TWoIaF then there isn't really much of an alternative. But FaB makes it pretty clear that this is not confirmed to have been a romance. Gyldayn paraphrases and quotes Maester Norren's report on what he observed at Maidenpool, but there is no actual confirmation of a romantic or sexual relationship. And considering who Daemon was - the prince consort and Protector of the Realm - there is not the slightest reason why he should dance around the fact that he had taken another paramour.

I think the show is going to turn one or several dragonseeds into Daemon's children considering

Spoiler

the show apparently closes with Daemon singing to Vermithor, promising to find him a new rider.

That could indicate that he already has a rider in mind for him, and just has to search him/her out. But, of course, he could also already think about Hugh or Ulf. Daemon repeatedly begs Rhaenyra to grant favors and rewards to them ... it could him simply understanding that they have to keep these two powerful dragonriders sweet. But it could also mean he knows how exactly they are related to the Targaryens and that they are both his bastards or bastards fathered by his father Baelon or his uncle Aemon. Or perhaps even by his late brother, King Viserys. If somebody actually knows something about those shenanigans it would be Daemon.

Nettles is a character they will have to put real work into - ditto Addam and Alyn if they have them as Corlys' boys rather than the offspring of some of Laenor's orgies or something, since they really seem to play up Corlys and Rhaenys being a love match - not just to get her as a character right, but how she effects Daemon and Mysaria and Rhaenyra.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Anyone some observations from the spoilers and creator comments:

My thoughts on possible changes and interpretations
 

  Hide contents

1. They're definitely trying to play this as a tragedy between Rhaenyra and Alicent's friendship going horribly wrong. I never got that from the books as I'm pretty sure Rhaenyra never really saw her as anything other than a gold digging interloper.

 

They strengthened that element by making Rhaenyra and Alicent of the same age ... but it is there in the book, too. They are friends, although not best friends, and Rhaenyra is at first happy for both her father and Alicent. Things only start to sour after the birth of the boys, reaching a first all time low at the tourney of 111 AC when the factions form. But that is five years after Viserys married Alicent.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

3. Rhaenys is seemingly the party responsible for attempting to cultivate Rhaenyra as having had bastards while Corys is more ambivalent about the whole thing. Which is interesting and a nice role reversal re: gender roles.

That is the Corlys from the books - he makes it crystal clear that Rhaenyra's sons are Velaryons, not Targaryens. And considering where Laenor lived throughout his life it is crystal clear that his parents must have known from the start that if he doesn't father son his future wife - whoever she might be - wouldn't be the one to blame. And they were fine with that - else they would have thrown Laenor out of High Tide, cancelling his allowance, and forcing him to co-habit with Rhaenyra until he had produced the children they desired. It is not that they wouldn't have had the power to do so.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

6. Aegon II is a rapist, which is what was expected. We're definitely going with Greens as scheming pieces of shit.

I actually think both Aegon and Aemond seem to be getting some depth. Aegon is just going to be a lousy and lazy pampered wastrel ... who could have been a better man if his father had wanted him as his heir. But he didn't, so the only thing Aegon was prepared for (outside from weirdo private lessons with 'mommy') was to do nothing.

(Thinking about that - I hope they will include some hints to Bates Motel in some scenes with Olivia Cooke. There she wasn't part of the incest fun, either, but her relationship to Aegon could certainly include some odd references to 'MOTHER' from Bates Motel.)

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

7. The season will be ending with the dragonfight over the Stormlands. Presumably Season 2 Episode 1 will be Blood and Cheese.

I guess so, one imagines the actual episodes will be close at the ending, with some reactions to this 'news' from both sides. I'd expect the second season will open with Aegon's ridiculous celebration of Aemond's kinslaying, possibly the first big hint that Alicent and Otto will no longer be able to control the boys. Insofar as the escalation of things is concerned, I'd also like to see Alicent actually attending Blood's torture sessions and express her desire to bathe in the blood of the man's family. We don't have to see this - and I'd expect that Otto is going to prevent something like that from actually transpiring - but we should see her stooping to that level.

If the dagger episode in season 1 is any indication, then the Alicent we are going to have violent episodes occasionally. Even in the book that's not impossible considering her mad attempts to get Jaehaera to murder Aegon in the Regency era.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

8. Rhaenyra not responding to the offer of Alicent that she can keep Dragonstone and Driftmark with, "Fuck you and ALL of your cronies" is OOC to the max. It is HER throne.

She seems to be reacting like that eventually ... treating Otto like she treated Orwyle in the book. What she considers behind closed doors and in private FaB never told us.

And you know - a kind of ridiculous aspect in all that is that nobody seems to ever think about reviving polygamy or setting aside this or that marriage to arrange a new one to seal a peace.

A sincere peace offer from either side at the beginning of the war should have included Aegon and Rhaenyra setting aside both their spouses to marry each other and jointly rule together ... or to top even Maegor the Cruel's many wives by having Aegon take Rhaenyra as a second wife while Rhaenyra, in turn, take Aegon as a second husband (and both Helaena and Daemon remain married to their respective spouses).

It would have been very odd and all ... but not beyond the fantasy and considerations of those people. And strangely enough, something like that could have worked, since every faction would have been duly represented. Aegon would have been happy enough with the title of king, not involving himself much in the government.

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

9. They're going hard on fear of the Others, which sounds kind of hilarious now that we have Season 8 making such light of them in their final climax.

Yes, I think that is more a consideration for the book series - which is why I hope George is going to mention at least the Conqueror's dream in future volumes. I think it is pretty much a given that we'll get something along those lines since George really has to establish who the hell the promised prince is supposed to be and why the hell the Targaryens think he will come from their bloodline.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Really don't know what George was thinking there. I mean, yes, I always rant about why nobody ever torched Storm's End after that ... but that's just a rather extreme take on this. Borros was closely related to the Velaryons. And Luke's death reflected very badly on him. Even if we grant him being illiterate and not the sharpest knife in the box ... anyone with half a brain would have tried to make some amends after that. Would fear that a couple of dragons would show up the next day and torch his place.

Honestly, I think he made out pretty well from the whole ordeal and I don't think that many people blamed him for the issue. He chose not to get involved by defending one side or the other and everyone had a lot more people to be angry at over it. Torching the place would also have been ridiculously stupid since that would just mean that you have another enemy of one of the Seven Kingdom's lords when he kept his forces out of events until the expected (but never received) nuptials.

He did turn fully on the Green side when Aegon II was widowed and an opportunity and ended up paying for that with his life but he was way-way down on the list of enemies Rhaenyra made.

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Keep in mind that Aemond quickly becomes Prince Regent and things look very good for the Greens until Aemond is fooled by the Harrenhal ruse. Surely that would have been the time when Borros and Aemond's betrothed would have approached the man ... if they were still keen to go through with this marriage.

I think it doesn't require a deep reading that Aemond, an honorless cur, didn't intend to honor the agreement he made once he got what he wanted out of it.

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When news about Alys Rivers nonsense reach folks and Rhaenyra takes KL then Borros looks even more suicidal if he never tries to make amends for this. Rhaenyra could certainly reject any peace offers he might make ... but that he doesn't even try is completely unrealistic.

I mean, again, Rhaenyra probably views Borros way down the list of enemies since Aemond and the actual murderers of her son are far higher. All Borros did was look the other way.

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Sure enough, they could also tone it down, or change it around somewhat. But I don't think we should imagine the whole thing as a big crisis. In the book Rhaenyra and Corlys are both dealing with their grief in their own way and say some angry words to each other. Neither truly intends to cut ties with the other.

I'm going to say it, Cragen Stark leaving him alive was his biggest mistake.

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Nettles is a character they will have to put real work into - ditto Addam and Alyn if they have them as Corlys' boys rather than the offspring of some of Laenor's orgies or something, since they really seem to play up Corlys and Rhaenys being a love match - not just to get her as a character right, but how she effects Daemon and Mysaria and Rhaenyra.

Corys being protective of his children is something that, of course, leads to his own defection. So it's not like he's going to betray them since they're the hope of House Velaryon's survival.

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That is the Corlys from the books - he makes it crystal clear that Rhaenyra's sons are Velaryons, not Targaryens. And considering where Laenor lived throughout his life it is crystal clear that his parents must have known from the start that if he doesn't father son his future wife - whoever she might be - wouldn't be the one to blame. And they were fine with that - else they would have thrown Laenor out of High Tide, cancelling his allowance, and forcing him to co-habit with Rhaenyra until he had produced the children they desired. It is not that they wouldn't have had the power to do so.

Random aside: I think the Iron Throne fucked up by cutting Viserys for having those tongues out. He was actually quite merciful given that they had been warned the consequences of what would happen if they continued saying that work. The Throne should have cut him if he'd NOT cut out their tongues.

But Corys clearly values his alliance with the Targaryens over his blood while Rhaenys is someone who will want her actual grandchildren on the Iron Throne.

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I actually think both Aegon and Aemond seem to be getting some depth. Aegon is just going to be a lousy and lazy pampered wastrel ... who could have been a better man if his father had wanted him as his heir. But he didn't, so the only thing Aegon was prepared for (outside from weirdo private lessons with 'mommy') was to do nothing.

I admit I like that Aegon wasn't initially all that into being the King but quickly developed a nasty entitled personality after being crowned that took everyone by surprise. They had been so eager to crown him king that they never stopped to think if he should be.

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If the dagger episode in season 1 is any indication, then the Alicent we are going to have violent episodes occasionally. Even in the book that's not impossible considering her mad attempts to get Jaehaera to murder Aegon in the Regency era.


If I had any sympathy for Alicent through the battle, I lost it when she planned to cut up Aegon III.

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And you know - a kind of ridiculous aspect in all that is that nobody seems to ever think about reviving polygamy or setting aside this or that marriage to arrange a new one to seal a peace.

I mean, over in another thread we just talked about how Jhaereys never really made any attempt to add polygamy to the exceptionalism doctrine and flat out ignored it when his daughter suggested it.

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A sincere peace offer from either side at the beginning of the war should have included Aegon and Rhaenyra setting aside both their spouses to marry each other and jointly rule together ... or to top even Maegor the Cruel's many wives by having Aegon take Rhaenyra as a second wife while Rhaenyra, in turn, take Aegon as a second husband (and both Helaena and Daemon remain married to their respective spouses).

I think you highlight the issue of sincerity which I believe the spoilers confirm the Greens are never sincere about to begin with. Not only is their offer of Dragonstone and Driftmark incredibly insulting (given they are already their masters) but the fact is that there's no way to rule together when both are so fundamentally hostile to each other. Their claims are also existentially opposed in issue as well.

Rhaenyra has sons to pass the Iron Throne down to already and Daemon seems fairly okay with his stepsons in a way that Aegon would not be passing his crown to "bastards."

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18 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

Whoa, you mean fAegon becoming king is a real possibility in your opinion bookwise? I never thought he'd get that far. Frankly I didn't see anyone think he'd get that far. 

In the Dany's HotU vision we see a mummer's dragon cheered by a crowd. So not only is it possible that he becomes king, he will probably be supported by the smallfolk, and it will be a challenge for Dany.

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56 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In the Dany's HotU vision we see a mummer's dragon cheered by a crowd. So not only is it possible that he becomes king, he will probably be supported by the smallfolk, and it will be a challenge for Dany.

I think he’ll have a honeymoon period, like False Dmitry.

At the same time, I expect that his supporters will exact terrible revenge on anyone associated with the ancien regime.  That may not damage his popularity in the capital, the Crownlands or Dorne, but will create enemies elsewhere.

Edited by SeanF
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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In the Dany's HotU vision we see a mummer's dragon cheered by a crowd. So not only is it possible that he becomes king, he will probably be supported by the smallfolk, and it will be a challenge for Dany.

I think the common folk are already covered by the Sparrows but the question of how long they'll last in the grand scheme of things.

 

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There’s no point in introducing Aegon unless he proves a formidable opponent for Dany. Cersei already has the Sparrows, Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, and the entirety of the North to contend with. She doesn’t need a new enemy to tide her over until Dany arrives.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In the Dany's HotU vision we see a mummer's dragon cheered by a crowd. So not only is it possible that he becomes king, he will probably be supported by the smallfolk, and it will be a challenge for Dany.

To be honest, a lot of  worldbuilding ret-cons from the series proper contained in AWoIaF, FaB and associated writings seem to be aimed at pre-emptive justification of Dany's difficulties when she returns to Westeros. While some of the rest, like the absurd surfeit of heroically capable young boys, does the same for GRRM's stated intention of letting 10-year-olds save the world in ASoIaF if he has to. Ahem.

Anyway, this means that Dany will have to go against a popular male pretender in the books. And it can't be anybody other than Aegon. I don't know what GRRM has in mind for Cersei, but after her PoV unambigiously revealed how stupid and crazy she is, it would be a mistake to let her hang around for much longer. She has been incredibly lucky to survive for as long as she did and to achieve as much as she did, given how incompetent she is and the stupid risks she took. But people who were previously interested in propping her up are either dead or arrayed against her by the end of ADwD.

Concerning HoTD - one of the big failings of FaB in my eyes was how the female characters were presented and treated, so I am glad that the show seeks to improve things on that score. But I won't lie - in hindsight much of FaB was quite disappointing, so the show will have an uphill battle to convince me. 

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44 minutes ago, Maia said:

To be honest, a lot of  worldbuilding ret-cons from the series proper contained in AWoIaF, FaB and associated writings seem to be aimed at pre-emptive justification of Dany's difficulties when she returns to Westeros. While some of the rest, like the absurd surfeit of heroically capable young boys, does the same for GRRM's stated intention of letting 10-year-olds save the world in ASoIaF if he has to. Ahem.

Anyway, this means that Dany will have to go against a popular male pretender in the books. And it can't be anybody other than Aegon. I don't know what GRRM has in mind for Cersei, but after her PoV unambigiously revealed how stupid and crazy she is, it would be a mistake to let her hang around for much longer. She has been incredibly lucky to survive for as long as she did and to achieve as much as she did, given how incompetent she is and the stupid risks she took. But people who were previously interested in propping her up are either dead or arrayed against her by the end of ADwD.

Concerning HoTD - one of the big failings of FaB in my eyes was how the female characters were presented and treated, so I am glad that the show seeks to improve things on that score. But I won't lie - in hindsight much of FaB was quite disappointing, so the show will have an uphill battle to convince me. 

Yeah, I definitely agree that the supplementary material was intended in part to justify future plot points. All the May-December relationships between young teenage girls (and a few boys like Maegor and Viserys II) and much older men certainly read like primers for the main series.

@Ran I was saying earlier that I think the new Daenerys (who died of the Shivers) was created to foreshadow Dany’s fate. Someone else mentioned you saying something similar in the past. Did George elaborate on this at all when FnB came out?

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