What if Hoster Tully had been healthy by the time of the novels ?

[astarkchoice]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Why aim so low? Edmure can do better, namely Margaery.

Maybe but i think at this stage renly and the tyrells.were trying to slip.her into cerseis place somehow

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Its hard to say

Hoster would have reached out and reminded walder not to cross him but then again as tywin cant use his tactic of drawing away riverlands forces with his pet beast then he probably will reach out to walder as well

 

Then again the tully way seems.to be strength through marriages so if hoster was alive  and healthy edmure might already be pledged to a frey ..it makes sense to stabilize their position as lords of the riverlands

Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone, and Hoster would most likely have not engaged him to any Frey woman or girl unless he really had no option left, I don't think that Hoster deemed Walder worthy of such a privilege and he wouldn't have trusted him anyway. 

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Hoster has the political experience to advise Robb.  But I don’t think he could stop the dishonorable and embarrassing way that Robb carried himself. Cat and Brynden failed to keep Robb from self-destructing. Hoster can’t do better. Robb would break his oath to Walder and gotten the same result.

Catelyn at the least wasn't around when Robb slept with Jeyne; by the time she met up with Robb again at Riverrun in ASOS the damage was done.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone, and Hoster would most likely have not engaged him to any Frey woman or girl unless he really had no option left, I don't think that Hoster deemed Walder worthy of such a privilege and he wouldn't have trusted him anyway. 

True but they are the most powerful house in the riverlands...he may have held his nose and got the engagement signed

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone, and Hoster would most likely have not engaged him to any Frey woman or girl unless he really had no option left, I don't think that Hoster deemed Walder worthy of such a privilege and he wouldn't have trusted him anyway. 

I'm surprised that Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone considering how marriage-crazy Hoster was with both his daughters (Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon when she was 12, not much older than Sansa was in the first book) and how angry he was with the Blackfish with the betrothals he spurned

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

True but they are the most powerful house in the riverlands...he may have held his nose and got the engagement signed

The most powerful but also the most unstable, given the numbers of descendants and potential pretenders for the Twins and how screwed-up they are as a family, and worst vassal who has kept weaseling out of its oaths one after another.   

I think that if Hoster refused to engage any of his children to Walder's it's for a good reason.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm surprised that Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone considering how marriage-crazy Hoster was with both his daughters (Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon when she was 12, not much older than Sansa was in the first book) and how angry he was with the Blackfish with the betrothals he spurned

Hoster tried to match Edmure to Arianne, but was refused by Doran.

I imagine that Hoster tried to get Edmure a bride from a powerfull family, but was rejected and then his health issues came and he no longer had the energy to persuit a new match, and Edmure decided to enjoy his time being the biggest catch in the riverlands.

It's either this, or Hoster regreated his actions that lost him his brother and his daughter and did not wanted to risk losing Edmure.

[astarkchoice]

6 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The most powerful but also the most unstable, given the numbers of descendants and potential pretenders for the Twins and how screwed-up they are as a family, and worst vassal who has kept weaseling out of its oaths one after another.   

I think that if Hoster refused to engage any of his children to Walder's it's for a good reason.

I think it was morw that like most lord they turned their noses up at the freys. A marriage to edmure would make sense as it would tie tully to the strongest vassal and 2nd strongest castle AND on the frey side it could settle any matters of inheritance...the frey married to lord of the riverlands wins the 'frey game'' after walder dies.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

I think it was morw that like most lord they turned their noses up at the freys. A marriage to edmure would make sense as it would tie tully to the strongest vassal and 2nd strongest castle AND on the frey side it could settle any matters of inheritance...the frey married to lord of the riverlands wins the 'frey game'' after walder dies.

Well Freys during the Dance of the Dragons were far more respected, with their lord being a far more courageous, heroic and knightly lord that Walder is, it's really with Walder's lordship that the Freys started to be really disliked and disdained by other houses. 

It's also telling that the more heroic Freys such as Stevron, Olyvar or Perwyn are well-liked and respected while Walder and most of his weasely and slimy descendants are looked down if not outright loathed by others.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

22 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Hoster tried to match Edmure to Arianne, but was refused by Doran.

I imagine that Hoster tried to get Edmure a bride from a powerfull family, but was rejected and then his health issues came and he no longer had the energy to persuit a new match, and Edmure decided to enjoy his time being the biggest catch in the riverlands.

It's either this, or Hoster regreated his actions that lost him his brother and his daughter and did not wanted to risk losing Edmure.

It could be a mix of both, Hoster may have wanted to marry Edmure to another powerful great house at first but with his health falling down he came to realize the damage to his relations with his brother and daughter done by his political moves and decided to stop trying to marry Edmure, deciding to give some freedom to his son on this regard. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:20 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Hoster might have had the sense to pump the brakes a bit on that King in the North stuff and kept Robb a little more focused on getting his family back instead of rebelling.  

[hnv]

Well, the entire arena would change as the Freys would have been far less bold, and could have been bought off at a cheaper price than what Rob paid. Lysa would be more scared in defying her father and could have at least agreed to a contingency of knights sent from the Vale. He would have defended the Riverlands far more prudently than Edmure. And perhaps he would have nipped the king in the north thing in the bud.

Would all of that had helped? there's too many uncontrolled variables at play here.

[Alden Rothack]

On 12/3/2022 at 4:45 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Why aim so low? Edmure can do better, namely Margaery.

They might go for it after Renly dies but not before

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:00 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Catelyn at the least wasn't around when Robb slept with Jeyne; by the time she met up with Robb again at Riverrun in ASOS the damage was done.

That thing with Jeyne was Robb’s fault. 

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

That thing with Jeyne was Robb’s fault. 

Robb shouldn't have been there in the first place, the Crag is a ruin that ten men could have taken

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 12/3/2022 at 4:36 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

He sent Glover etc troops to Duskendale.

In this battle it was a win/win for him  either way, GRRM said and this may’ve been an actual win if not for Gregor’s horse that shouldn’t even exist in the first place broke the lines. Giant Macaskill, almost of a height with Gregor was carrying horses on his back, not the other way around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_MacAskill

To be honest they could have swarmed the Lannister camp while their men were still getting equipped. Tyrion notes they were a mile away by the time he was ahorse -- the Lannisters weren't in formation yet -- and the Lannister camp spreads over leagues (or miles). If Roose were going to give up the high ground and advance, he never should have waited for Tywin's men to form up.

“Lord Tywin’s camp spread over leagues. ”

“The Stark boy stole a march on us,” Bronn said. “He crept down the kingsroad in the night, and now his host is less than a mile north of here, forming up in battle array.”

 

[astarkchoice]

18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

To be honest they could have swarmed the Lannister camp while their men were still getting equipped. Tyrion notes they were a mile away by the time he was ahorse -- the Lannisters weren't in formation yet -- and the Lannister camp spreads over leagues (or miles). If Roose were going to give up the high ground and advance, he never should have waited for Tywin's men to form up.

“Lord Tywin’s camp spread over leagues. ”

“The Stark boy stole a march on us,” Bronn said. “He crept down the kingsroad in the night, and now his host is less than a mile north of here, forming up in battle array.”

 

Maybe but probably not

The scouts  have clearly spotted them and sounded the alarm around the westerlands camp  !  So  they are a mile away and we know if  northerners just tried to zerg rush the camp then they still have like 5-7 mins or so to get dressed for battle (or at least grab a weapon) 

If they swarm  unorgainised (and tired from a nights march)  into another unorgainised swarm then tactics+ formations fly out the window and most likely  the fresher men will probably prevail  esp  as one side has barely 600 horse to the other sides 7k or so

Edited December 8, 2022 by astarkchoice

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Maybe but probably not

The scouts  have clearly spotted them and sounded the alarm around the westerlands camp  !  So  they are a mile away and we know if  northerners just tried to zerg rush the camp then they still have like 5-7 mins or so to get dressed for battle (or at least grab a weapon) 

If they swarm  unorgainised (and tired from a nights march)  into another unorgainised swarm then tactics+ formations fly out the window and most likely  the fresher men will probably prevail  esp  as one side has barely 600 horse to the other sides 7k or so

Right I'm also factoring in that the Wastelands camp is spread out over at least six miles. Even giving them a leisurely 20 minute mile pace marching *should* still get them to the edge of the Lannister camp before a sizable chunk of Lannister men can even get halfway across the camp*.

Were Roose even more adventuresome than one would think, he could have used the cavalry a la Tywin to start fires, sow chaos, et al. He does, after all, have more than a few groupings of twenty good men.

There's a lot we can pick apart in hindsight but the seemingly misfitting strategy and tactics deployed Roose either show he's fairly incompetent and indecisive -- a touch of McClellan perhaps -- or he was achieving Robb's orders in the absolute worst way possible for his own benefit. Roose has never struck me as incompetent nor indecisive. 

* obviously making educated guesses here as the detail of how the camp is laid out is lacking 

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

To be honest they could have swarmed the Lannister camp while their men were still getting equipped. Tyrion notes they were a mile away by the time he was ahorse -- the Lannisters weren't in formation yet -- and the Lannister camp spreads over leagues (or miles). If Roose were going to give up the high ground and advance, he never should have waited for Tywin's men to form up.

“Lord Tywin’s camp spread over leagues. ”

“The Stark boy stole a march on us,” Bronn said. “He crept down the kingsroad in the night, and now his host is less than a mile north of here, forming up in battle array.”

 

It's still risky though, riskier than it would've been otherwise since Roose just has 500-600 horse. But instead of dispersing them among his infantry as standard bearers like we see through the eyes of Tyrion, he should've sent them all to deal a sudden blow to Tywin's camp while the infantry was still in the move and retreat, either back to their own lines or behind Tywin's lines if it was possible in the cover of night.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Alden Rothack]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It's still risky though, riskier than it would've been otherwise since Roose just has 500-600 horse. But instead of dispersing them among his infantry as standard bearers like we see through the eyes of Tyrion, he should've sent them all to deal a sudden blow to Tywin's camp while the infantry was still in the move and retreat, either back to their own lines or behind Tywin's lines if it was possible in the cover of night.

Yes, the northerners are in formation the lannisters are not, done right it could have been just as sucessful as oxcross or the camps

pikes are more than capable of stopping any lannister that manage to get moving in the dark