"Only 500 pages to go" for Winds of Winter

[SeanF]

If nothing else, I’d like to see all the big cliffhangers from Dance resolved.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:42 PM, butterweedstrover said:

ADWD and AFFC had way more teenage fantasies about sexy nuns (Tyene and Septa Lemore) and mindless 'internal' drivel splayed throughout the word count. 

Prose became bloated in of itself discounting the plot elements. 

Ah okay. You're probably the same type of reader as the people who complained and railed about the last three Harry Potter books.

I guess that explains the disconnect. I don't mind a little bit of "purple prose" but you might be someone who likes things to move from point A to point B as quickly as possible...character development be damned.

To clarify I'm not saying I disagree. The Tyrion POV in A Dance with Dragons needed some serious editing. Too many chapters, too many words.

On 4/14/2023 at 12:36 PM, Darzin said:

I think the five year gap was really an issue in retrospect. George cited Cersei as one of the reasons to scrap it, but that's easy to get around just have someone like Mace take over as hand and keep the realm in stable uneasy stagnation. and have Stannis stew in the north with the wall and Moat Cailin protecting him. Doing that would save him two books and he'd have had the plots where they are now 20 years ago. 

LOL but that's the funny part.

Mace becoming the new Hand against Cersei's will is not an easy get-around. That would be its own story.

You really think Cersei Lannister (or even Jaime) would sit on her hands and let Mace Tyrell rule over her and the rest of the country. She had some serious problems when her very own father (who also happens to be her idol) did it...why would she let Mace? We had two books dedicated to a plotline that can be basically described as Cersei resists or attempts to undermine the authority of the Hand. If Ned, Tyrion and Tywin couldn't catch a break, why would Mace? Like Robert, Mace is an oaf but unlike Robert, Mace doesn't have any redeeming qualities nor is he as strong as Robert. She'd have him thrown out or killed. So either she would've been caught and punished or Mace would've been expelled or killed.

Having Stannis stew in the North at the Wall would not have protected him. The Wall offers no protection from the south and Ramsay is more powerful and more adept than Stannis in the North. Plus, it makes no sense that Roose would not have been able to get through Moat Cailin in five years. The crannogmen would've wanted the ironmen gone sooner rather than later; although Roose and his men are trash, they are still northmen. They would've gotten through sooner or later.

On 4/14/2023 at 12:32 AM, Mithras said:

A time jump between TWoW and ADoS is a must. To do that, GRRM should end TWoW in a concluding manner, just like ASoS. To do that, GRRM should decide where the story is going. To do that, GRRM should write a hard outline and stick to it. To do that, GRRM should stop being stubborn.

Agreed.

It is absolutely mandatory at this point.

Six months to one year sounds about right. Two years is unfathomable to me as a time skip between Winds and Dream

[sifth]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Second of all, the main protagonists are not ready to take center stage of the story. The big five heroic protagonists are either bogged down in faraway places or they are completely destitute and scattered. Like there is literally nothing that the Stark kids can do at this point besides train: the people who were fighting for them (i.e. the other heroes) lost and died in the first act of the story. Jon would basically be committing suicide if he left the Wall and it was not in Dany's best interest to immediately leave for Westeros immediately after. Tyrion, again, is a different case: the villains won in the first act but Tyrion pissed off his fellow villains one too many times and got kicked out.

Holey wall of text Batman. The fact that GRRM seems unable or unwilling to let his main characters take center stage, is what got us in this mess in the first place. It's why we have many and more chapters of Tyrion, Dany and Jon doing next to nothing in ADWD. As was already stated, the first 80 pages of GoT's are filled with enough lore to have the reader both engaged and able to understand the story. He could have easily done the same after the time skip.

[butterweedstrover]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:34 AM, SeanF said:

A surprising number of people have sexual fantasies about nuns, believing that they smuggle men into their convents and/or enjoy wild lesbian sex with each other.

It's also the forbidden aspect. The fact that this women are supposedly unattainable (sexually speaking) makes their inappropriate depictions feel more 'naughty' and stimulating. 

But its just a teenage fantasy. 

[butterweedstrover]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Ah okay. You're probably the same type of reader as the people who complained and railed about the last three Harry Potter books.

I guess that explains the disconnect. I don't mind a little bit of "purple prose" but you might be someone who likes things to move from point A to point B as quickly as possible...character development be damned.

To clarify I'm not saying I disagree. The Tyrion POV in A Dance with Dragons needed some serious editing. Too many chapters, too many words.

 

I distinguish between internal and external narratives. If I'm reading Proust or Ishiguro I come in with the mindset that much of the writing will focus on introspection and thought rather than action with cause and effect.  

With Martin I'm more interested in the external narrative and only rely on the internal insofar as it benefits the characters and offers potential insight into how they might react to a given event later down the line. 

BUT... 

I also think, if we treat AFFC/ADWD as a more literary exploration of character psychology, etc. a lot of it doesn't all rub. 

Much of internal conflict is minimal, lame, or just horny. Pate's fetishizing Rosey, Tyrion obsessing over the rape of his sister, Sam agonizing over his weight, etc. doesn't have much long term implication. 

They are temporary emotions driven my stimulus that quickly recedes and whilst they feel powerful at the moment don't amount to much worth. 

For example, imagine if you are the middle of some intense sexual intercourse with some stranger you just met. Things are getting hot and heavy, you feel physical close to them and your nervous system is buzzing with feedback from your senses. The smell, the sounds, the touch, etc. 

In that moment you might feel in love, you might look at this person whom you associate these brief sensations with and attach an undo amount of feeling. You might feel you are sharing such a deep part of yourself that they have now become your life partner. 

Then the sex ends and you crash back to reality. You might still like the person but you still don't know them very well and those 'emotions' become distant memories. 

Road rage is much the same, you might be cut off at a bad time in the middle of a sweltering heat wave and swear on your life the driver who did this is your sworn enemy, then seconds later that anger seems completely foriegn to you. 

A lot of the 'introspection' Martin focuses on is temporary and not very relevant. Which is why it doesn't deserve the word count dedicated. 

You can still overview these feelings, but having them hammered over and over again feels like a waste. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think the five-year gap could have worked with Cersei if Kevan had been Hand during that time and AFFC starts with him stepping down after finally having enough. He would have kept Cersei at bay during that time, but with him gone now she has no one to counteract her. Plus in this version, Tommen would be 12, so the story could pick up with him about to marry Margaery for real, and the Tyrell’s growing influence, along with the ticking time clock to Tommen reaching adulthood, is part of what puts Cersei over the edge.

Keep in mind that Cersei wasn’t as cartoonishly incompetent in the first three books. GRRM really put his thumb on the scale in AFFC. Realistically, it should have taken her much longer to flame out like that.

Edited April 17, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[divica]

47 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the five-year gap could have worked with Cersei if Kevan had been Hand during that time and AFFC starts with him stepping down after finally having enough. He would have kept Cersei at bay during that time, but with him gone now she has no one to counteract her. Plus in this version, Tommen would be 12, so the story could pick up with him about to marry Margaery for real, and the Tyrell’s growing influence, along with the ticking time clock to Tommen reaching adulthood, is part of what puts Cersei over the edge.

Keep in mind that Cersei wasn’t as cartoonishly incompetent in the first three books. GRRM really put his thumb on the scale in AFFC. Realistically, it should have taken her much longer to flame out like that.

I don't know if the gap would have worked with someone like kevan as hand because he would have stabilized westeros and then cersei would have to fuck it all again.

It is better if she is queen during the gap and when the story starts she has comitted some small fuck ups but her reign is filled with hidden problems like the faith militant.

Edited April 18, 2023 by divica

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I don't know if the gap would have worked with someone like kevan as hand because he would have stabilized westeros and then cersei would have to fuck it all again.

It is better if she is queen during the gap and when the story starts she has comitted some small fuck ups but her reign is filled with hidden problems like the faith militant.

Kevan was always a wingman. He would have been competent on his own, but he’s used to taking orders from someone else. I think he would have stabilized things, but not to the point where Cersei couldn’t undo it after he left.

[divica]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Kevan was always a wingman. He would have been competent on his own, but he’s used to taking orders from someone else. I think he would have stabilized things, but not to the point where Cersei couldn’t undo it after he left.

Robert could whore and drink 24/7, have a small council where half the people were plotting against him (varys, lf) and even then had a stable realm. After some years any competent guy with the resources behind the lannisters and tyrels should have things close to what they were in robert's time. It is basically how to deal with the consequences of the war (this kevan should know how to do) and then politics to keep people happy. 

[GZ Bloodraven]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Stop playing...the Cersei/Jaime plot is not two entirely new stories. It's the next chapter in a story that begin in the third chapter of the very first book. You know, the chapter Catelyn tells Ned that the Lannisters are coming and Ned's response is "oh boy"

Martell and Greyjoy stuff are three new stories yes with 7 new POVs and a bunch of other secondary characters to write for. However, the Greyjoy stuff is the very thing that is pulling everyone back together.

• A captive Asha telling Stannis and every other northman that will listen that they need to watch out for Euron...only for no one to take her seriously (dramatic irony)
• Victarion is going to the other side of the world so that he can turn Dany against Euron. As it were, Tyrion, Moqorro, Barristan and soon Marwyn will be there to corroborate Victarion's story
• the power establishment in King's Landing is now forced to deal with Euron but they were completely unprepared to deal with him
• Samwell is supposed to be about Night's Watch business in Oldtown but now he has to think about the threat posed by Euron

It's clear as day that Euron is becoming a big bad of some kind.

The "what else is there to do" is get to the endgame. It is absolutely true that you can't have an untrained Arya, an untrained Bran, an untrained Jon, an untrained Sansa, and an untested Dany go endgame super quickly from Storm to Winds. But you also can't spend an entire book just training and testing them: so go deeper into the Martells, and the Greyjoys, and the Lannisters, and the Aegon stuff over the course of two books

Precisely my point.

The Lannisters have a lot of enemies. At present, their most powerful/dangerous enemies are the Dornishmen and the secret "Targaryen" prince. What happens when they band together?

But having the Cersei/Jaime plotlines both be POV is introducing new central plotlines. I love both of the plotlines, do not get me wrong, Cersei's chapters in Feast are incredible and you need to keep Jaime around after his great Storm of Swords stuff, but they are a lot of essentially distraction from the scattered Starks, Targaryens, and Tyrion that we started with.

And the Martell and Greyjoy plotline being important doesn't change the fact that we have 7 new POVs and a lot of book space for it. 

And for the need to get to the endgame with a united Martell/Aegon force, I'm glad we agree.

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This is how I know you don't really understand what you're talking about. Why would an serious author be okay with clunky exposition? Why would any professional be okay with clunky anything? Why would that ever be an option?

And this is of course assuming that GRRM would never have gotten writer's block, that he never would've had a hard time piecing everything together and that everything would go exactly as planned.

The five year time skip already happened. A Feast for Crows and the first half of A Dance with Dragons served their purpose: all of the stuff that would've taken place over five years has been covered and written. However, Dance came out almost thirteen years ago.

So....what's your point? Because all the worldbuilding you say that had slowed the writing and reading process down to a standstill had already happened in Dance. And again, Dance came out twelve and a half or so years ago. So what's the hold up now? GRRM said that there are no new POVs or no new locales outside of Westeros.

So it's clear that we probably would've ran into these same issues (or a different set of issues)

Because he would have gotten his book out before the show botched the ending, and before he got bogged down in 1 2 3 4 work in progresses 12 years after the last main series book.

The hold now is the shows, Fire and Blood, COVID and grief and life I would assume, and the fact that he has to write the longest book he's every written during all of that. Had he already gotten to the meat of Winds earlier, say, in 2013, we wouldn't be here. And a lot of people are doomer on us ever seeing Dream of Spring. I'm not saying he could have expected the books to take him so long, or that he'd have like 5 shows that he's working on (and Wild Cards, and others), but I am saying it would have been nice to get the last book.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Robert could whore and drink 24/7, have a small council where half the people were plotting against him (varys, lf) and even then had a stable realm. After some years any competent guy with the resources behind the lannisters and tyrels should have things close to what they were in robert's time. It is basically how to deal with the consequences of the war (this kevan should know how to do) and then politics to keep people happy. 

See, I think how smoothly a king’s reign is has less to do with logic and more about what the author wants to happen. Littlefinger is an absurd character who should have been dead a long time ago, but the story needs him to succeed, so he does. Robb and Stannis are both competent leaders, but the story needed them to fail, so they did. I definitely think GRRM could have convincingly written the Lannisters’ fall from grace even after five years of relative peace (especially if efforts to quell the Riverlands went belly-up and Jaime had to then be dispatched as a last resort, which is logically what would need to happen with a time jump). The bigger issue would be what happens to Jaime and Cersei’s relationship. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I wrote about the five year gap extensively in a post last year:

 

[Mithras]

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Six months to one year sounds about right. Two years is unfathomable to me as a time skip between Winds and Dream

Once all the stones are set in place at the end of TWoW, 3-5 years of time jump is perfectly doable. GRRM has all the tools he needs. Winter might bring everything to a halt. On top of that, a plague that comes in several waves assure that nothing important can take place during this time jump. ADoS might start just as winter giving some break (perhaps another false spring) and the plague finally running its course. This is how things can start happening again.

BTW, A Dream of Spring starting with a false spring sounds like a cool idea.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Mithras

[divica]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

See, I think how smoothly a king’s reign is has less to do with logic and more about what the author wants to happen. Littlefinger is an absurd character who should have been dead a long time ago, but the story needs him to succeed, so he does. Robb and Stannis are both competent leaders, but the story needed them to fail, so they did. I definitely think GRRM could have convincingly written the Lannisters’ fall from grace even after five years of relative peace (especially if efforts to quell the Riverlands went belly-up and Jaime had to then be dispatched as a last resort, which is logically what would need to happen with a time jump). The bigger issue would be what happens to Jaime and Cersei’s relationship. 

that is kind of a deus ex machina argument. Fuck logic, anything can happen as long as the author wants it. And there is no way to refute that...

On other news, do you really think that there could be a rebellion in the riverlands for 5 years!? what would even be the point of that rebellion? For example, there are several small clues that LSH and the brotherhood might be planning to rescue the northern hostages and restart robb's rebellion via jon snow. That would make no sense with the time jump.

honestly, the only way to the the time jump would be with  novella focused on jon and stannis. And even with how things are in the books the north is too behind what it needs to be. Hell, why didn't jon ask anyone to teach him to warg during the entire adwd?

[BlackLightning]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Holey wall of text Batman. The fact that GRRM seems unable or unwilling to let his main characters take center stage, is what got us in this mess in the first place. It's why we have many and more chapters of Tyrion, Dany and Jon doing next to nothing in ADWD. As was already stated, the first 80 pages of GoT's are filled with enough lore to have the reader both engaged and able to understand the story. He could have easily done the same after the time skip.

The Starks and the Targaryens have always been too young. That was GRRM's first mistake. Everyone should be at least three years older than what they are. If Dany started off the series at 16, then she would've been 18 or 19 by now which would make it both easier and more plausible for her to take more of a central role as a serious warrior-queen. The same is doubly true with Bran. For a 13-year-old boy with vast psychic powers who ends up becoming the ruler of one of the largest nations on the planet is a fascinating story. It's really young but common enough in fiction and the stuff of legends. Besides, 13-year-olds in this world have jobs and are allowed to fight and bear arms. But a 9-year-old?

 

But enough of that.

This whole "the time skip would've made everything better" thing is wishful fandom thinking. 

I do not believe that GRRM could enumerate and explain all of the power shifts and situations that had occurred in King's Landing, the North, the Wall, Dorne, the Iron Islands, the Riverlands, the Vale, Braavos, Meereen and Bloodraven's Cave over the span of five years 80 pages. And evidently, neither did he.

You do realize that Cersei's story post five-year gap was supposed to starts off with her sitting in prison...or with the very ill-fated visit to Margaery that gets her imprisoned.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

You do realize that Cersei's story post five-year gap was supposed to starts off with her sitting in prison...or with the very ill-fated visit to Margaery that gets her imprisoned.

I see nothing wrong with that. GRRM is very good when it comes to flashbacks. The battle at the First of the First Men, was told to us through flashbacks, for example. Simply having Kevan as Cersei's Hand and having him finally abandoning her, would have been enough for me. I didn't need pointless chapters like Tommen's wedding, which only really serves to show us the destruction of the Tower of the Hand and little else.

[Equilibrium]

There was zero need for timejump and if GRRM fudged a chronology of the main political events by several months here and there it would have been stellar in every aspect, he can still do that but there actually is little real need for it, Daenerys and Jon probably learned all they need to learn about ruling during those endless chapters in ADWD (Tyrion's chapters were many and fairly loose as well but they were at least varied) and rest of the "education" can be done with some anecdotes and training montages fairly quickly in the first part of TWOW, Daenerys will learn to somewhat control Drogon, Arya will learn few more bits of facechanging and assassination, Bran will greenseer some more (it would be major mistake to make him too powerful and GRRM knows that) and Sansa will catch up on political intrigue in the Vale, like three chapters each during which other things happen as well would do the job.

What I want to be taken time for to be done properly is showcase the impact of all the calamities that will soon hit Westeros after the suffering War of Five Kings already caused. We should have Euron's invasion, Aegon's conquest, Stannis' war, coming of Daenerys, feudal anarchy as nobles scamper to right the wrongs amid the chaos of central governance, Faith fundamentalists, Brotherhood's campaign in Riverlands, general banditry, broken men, reavers, pirates (Aurane, Saan and others), slavers (opportunistic and desperate due to lack of slaves Daenerys caused), harsh winter, famine, wolves (Nymeria’s pack) and quite possibly a grey plague epidemic.

It should take almost whole of the two upcoming books inter-spaced with some political maneuvering and we should see it relent only at the very end, when spring comes after Others are defeated and central power is reasserted aggressively.

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, sifth said:

I see nothing wrong with that. GRRM is very good when it comes to flashbacks. The battle at the First of the First Men, was told to us through flashbacks, for example. Simply having Kevan as Cersei's Hand and having him finally abandoning her, would have been enough for me. I didn't need pointless chapters like Tommen's wedding, which only really serves to show us the destruction of the Tower of the Hand and little else.

But you said 80 pages.

Cersei isn't the only POV that requires a bunch of flashback or dream exposition. Jaime, Brienne, Dany and Jon also require a bunch. At that point, you're going far beyond the 80 page thing you brought up. And we haven't even talked about the issues pertaining to the Dornish and the Ironborn.

 

If the five year gap was to ever have a chance of working, the death of Balon Greyjoy should've happened a lot later. Even so, Oberyn Martell's death is a powder keg for events in Dorne. The Sand Snakes and Arianne Martell wouldn't have waited that long and it definitely wouldn't have taken Quentyn five years to get to Meereen.

[sifth]

27 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But you said 80 pages.

Cersei isn't the only POV that requires a bunch of flashback or dream exposition. Jaime, Brienne, Dany and Jon also require a bunch. At that point, you're going far beyond the 80 page thing you brought up. And we haven't even talked about the issues pertaining to the Dornish and the Ironborn.

 

If the five year gap was to ever have a chance of working, the death of Balon Greyjoy should've happened a lot later. Even so, Oberyn Martell's death is a powder keg for events in Dorne. The Sand Snakes and Arianne Martell wouldn't have waited that long and it definitely wouldn't have taken Quentyn five years to get to Meereen.

Sorry, but the Dorne story can be cut almost entirely. Members of the family tried a coup, it failed. There I just saved you 100 pages. Euron becoming king can be summarized in an Asha flashback. There another 100 pages saved. So now we can focus on the main characters again, now that those side bars are gone. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by sifth

[divica]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but the Dorne story can be cut almost entirely. Members of the family tried a coup, it failed. There I just saved you 100 pages. Euron becoming king can be summarized in an Asha flashback. There another 100 pages saved. So now we can focus on the main characters again, now that those side bars are gone. 

danny could also be easily cut. we just need to know whatever policies she has at present to deal with slavery and the dragons could start causing problems after the time jump.