Jon's death

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

Jon is not dead.  

That would be a disappointment. Too many have come back who were supposed to be dead. Those stab injuries were fatal. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

14 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

That would be a disappointment. Too many have come back who were supposed to be dead. Those stab injuries were fatal. 

I can think of 2. And Jon will be 3, and Westeros won’t be doomed anymore.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I can think of 2. And Jon will be 3, and Westeros won’t be doomed anymore.

Are you referring to the reanimated dead?  I made some notes on the Westeros undead, it may not be complete.

According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice".   *Time: George R. R. Martin on the One Game of Thrones He 'Argued Against', July 13, 2017

Fire wights:

Beric Dondarrion......raised by Thoros and he continues to fight for Robert Barathian and protecting the smallfolk, with the BWB and against Gregor Clegane, as he was killed by Gregor Clegane at the Mummer's Ford.  Remember Clegane was killing many smallfolk and the BWB fights to save and protect the smallfolk.  The point being, he keeps doing what he was doing when killed and raised the first time.

Cat Stark/Lady Stoneheart......raised by Beric who was raised by Thoros six times.  Cat was murdered at the Red Wedding right after she killed Jinglebell, the Frey fool.  After LS was raised by Beric, he died and LS continued killing Freys.

note: both raised by Thoros (Cat raised by Thoros's creature) and became 'wight(s) animated by fire'  both continue the same sort of action as when they died...BD fighting for Robert....LS killing Freys (she killed Jinglebell)

 The revenant:

An unusual type of undead is Ser Robert Strong.  A mysterious Knight brought in by Qyburn. A giant of man he becomes a King's Gaurd and is Cersei's personal gaurd.  Huge, 8 ft tall, silent, doesn't eat, drink or use privy.   A revenant, believed to be raised by necromancy by Qyburn, who may have used the dead Gregor to raise the mysterious Robert Strong. Like Gregor Clegane he is to be Cersei's champion at the end of her current trial.

Ice wights:

Coldhands.  ***Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals ... His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk." said by Leaf.  Bran: They'll kill him.  Leaf: No. They killed him long ago. ***   Dressed in greys and blacks with a black scarf hiding his face, he appears to be a member of the NW.  He refers to Sam as "Brother!" and saves Sam, Gilly and the babe from a wight attack at Whitetree, interestingly in the haunted forest.  If Coldhands was indeed a ranger of the NW, it seems he continues to range.  It is difficult to discern if he has agency or is controlled by someone or something.

 

the Wights found beyond the Wall;  Reanimated corpses of people and some animals killed north of the Wall. They are believed to be controlled by the Others and attack living Wildings and the NW Brothers.  They do not have self-agency as the fire wights, and they can be killed by fire.    

The reanimated dead are not like living persons.  Will Jon be a hero after death and reanimation? I seriously doubt it.  If you want Jon to be able to save the World, he needs to be alive.

 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

6 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Are you referring to the reanimated dead?  I made some notes on the Westeros undead, it may not be complete.

According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice".   *Time: George R. R. Martin on the One Game of Thrones He 'Argued Against', July 13, 2017

Fire wights:

Beric Dondarrion......raised by Thoros and he continues to fight for Robert Barathian and protecting the smallfolk, with the BWB and against Gregor Clegane, as he was killed by Gregor Clegane at the Mummer's Ford.  Remember Clegane was killing many smallfolk and the BWB fights to save and protect the smallfolk.  The point being, he keeps doing what he was doing when killed and raised the first time.

Cat Stark/Lady Stoneheart......raised by Beric who was raised by Thoros six times.  Cat was murdered at the Red Wedding right after she killed Jinglebell, the Frey fool.  After LS was raised by Beric, he died and LS continued killing Freys.

note: both raised by Thoros (Cat raised by Thoros's creature) and became 'wight(s) animated by fire'  both continue the same sort of action as when they died...BD fighting for Robert....LS killing Freys (she killed Jinglebell)

 The revenant:

An unusual type of undead is Ser Robert Strong.  A mysterious Knight brought in by Qyburn. A giant of man he becomes a King's Gaurd and is Cersei's personal gaurd.  Huge, 8 ft tall, silent, doesn't eat, drink or use privy.   A revenant, believed to be raised by necromancy by Qyburn, who may have used the dead Gregor to raise the mysterious Robert Strong. Like Gregor Clegane he is to be Cersei's champion at the end of her current trial.

Ice wights:

Coldhands.  ***Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals ... His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk." said by Leaf.  Bran: They'll kill him.  Leaf: No. They killed him long ago. ***   Dressed in greys and blacks with a black scarf hiding his face, he appears to be a member of the NW.  He refers to Sam as "Brother!" and saves Sam, Gilly and the babe from a wight attack at Whitetree, interestingly in the haunted forest.  If Coldhands was indeed a ranger of the NW, it seems he continues to range.  It is difficult to discern if he has agency or is controlled by someone or something.

 

the Wights found beyond the Wall;  Reanimated corpses of people and some animals killed north of the Wall. They are believed to be controlled by the Others and attack living Wildings and the NW Brothers.  They do not have self-agency as the fire wights, and they can be killed by fire.    

The reanimated dead are not like living persons.  Will Jon be a hero after death and reanimation? I seriously doubt it.  If you want Jon to be able to save the World, he needs to be alive.

 

Jon will be brought back as a special Ice wight, I think the Orhers plan to make him their leader. But his abominable Targaryen blood will actually save Jon, and “warm” him. And bring him back the rest of the way. I also believe his mind to have survived in Ghost, and will be transferred back to his own body eventually.

[LongRider]

With a warg living a 2nd life, it only goes one way.  If the warg is purged out somehow, it dies.  Also, it cannot live in a dead body.   Jon's body, if reanimated, will still be dead.  He would not be able to go back into it.  This passage illustrates what happens when Varamyr purged Haggon's spirit from it's 2nd life in the wolf Greyskin.

Quote

None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man. 

Jon is a powerful warg, but he fights his warging abilities, he's not trained and hasn't heard about a wargs 2nd life like we have.   I just don't think Jon will warg into Ghost if dead.  Could I wrong?  Of course, but his Targ blood warming him?  Don't think so.

[EggBlue]

it's rather that Jon's situation is just like Bran's when he fell off the tower.

I think we have at least three clues for it : 

1. when Bran falls, Cat in a very matter-of-fact way says: it should have been you. which may be foreshadowing. 

2. Jon thinks Ghost belongs to the Old Gods and Ghost is just a representation of Jon.

3. Bran keeps calling to Jon about opening his third eye . from the very beginning , it is obvious that Bran and Jon's stories are closely connected with both of them having clear links to the Old Gods, the Others, winter and Winterfell crypts . seems like Bran is going to use this situation to contact Jon and opens his third eye. 

we KNOW that D&D weren't big fans of the whole wierwood thing, probably as it was difficult to adapt. and we know they left out lady stoneheart who is avenging Starks . what if they mixed Jon and Stoneheart's stories?

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

it's rather that Jon's situation is just like Bran's when he fell off the tower.

I think we have at least three clues for it : 

1. when Bran falls, Cat in a very matter-of-fact way says: it should have been you. which may be foreshadowing. 

2. Jon thinks Ghost belongs to the Old Gods and Ghost is just a representation of Jon.

3. Bran keeps calling to Jon about opening his third eye . from the very beginning , it is obvious that Bran and Jon's stories are closely connected with both of them having clear links to the Old Gods, the Others, winter and Winterfell crypts . seems like Bran is going to use this situation to contact Jon and opens his third eye. 

we KNOW that D&D weren't big fans of the whole wierwood thing, probably as it was difficult to adapt. and we know they left out lady stoneheart who is avenging Starks . what if they mixed Jon and Stoneheart's stories?

At the start Jon was the one who was strongest in the force most powerful one with the gift, as evidenced by him warging into Ghost as soon as they found the pups (Jon heard something and found Ghost but we know Ghost makes no sound), Bran's gifts only woke after he fell from the tower.

 

BTW can't help but say, that Brynden dude sure is nepotistic. He gives the Albino one to Jon, his several times great nephew. 

[EggBlue]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

BTW can't help but say, that Brynden dude sure is nepotistic. He gives the Albino one to Jon, his several times great nephew. 

that's the Targaryen in him 

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it's rather that Jon's situation is just like Bran's when he fell off the tower.

I'd like to add to this if I may. 

There have several characters who should have died, but didn't:

Bran badly injured from a fall, saved with the help of direwolves and the The Eyed-Crow. (magic)

Dany, burned on Drogo's funeral pyre, lived through it by magic.  What sort of magic?  I'm not sure.

Tyrion, very badly injured during battle of Blackwater.  Nursed back to health.

Davos, should have drowned during battle of Blackwater, didn't.

And possibly Sandor, who could be dead or could be nursed back to health by the Elder Brother.  (GRRM is such a tease!)

So, Jon may come close to death, Bran does his part in the magical realm, and Val will nurse him in the here and now.   
 

[Rosetta Stone]

On 1/16/2023 at 11:16 PM, Castellan said:

Resurrection is going to be an increasing theme, I think.

So far we have had Beric and Catelyn and I think Jaime and Brienne will go the same path (in turn).

Personally I think Jon will warg Ghost while his body is kept on ice, not quite dead. (don't ask me how, I can see the flaws in this as I write). At some time, he'll be able to get back in his body. This will introduce a new form of resurrection.

We have also had Gregor plus various body parts put in motion. I don't know if this counts as resurrection, more like creation.

Has there been anyone else?

Euron thinks he'll be reborn as a God. I don't think so. But with his motley collection of mages on board Silence I guess something might happen to someone.

There have been other kinds of 'resurrections' as in Sandor being 'reborn' as a brother on the Quiet Isle. 

There have been transformations - Arya into 'no-one' and Sansa into Alayne

Those who come back from death are less than they were.  Lost memory is one irreversible side effect of death.  The body doesn't repair the damage.  The resurrected body functions despite of the physical injuries and the damage done.  Jon was gravely injured in many parts.  He may no longer have the ability to speak.  He may have increased strength in his working limbs like Weymar.  

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

4 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Those who come back from death are less than they were.  Lost memory is one irreversible side effect of death.  The body doesn't repair the damage.  The resurrected body functions despite of the physical injuries and the damage done.  Jon was gravely injured in many parts.  He may no longer have the ability to speak.  He may have increased strength in his working limbs like Weymar.  

It’s all just speculation at this point. Jon may come back whole or missing a piece of himself. I’m guessing he’ll come back a lot colder and with next to no mercy for anyone. I imagine he’ll be as the old Kings of Winter were. 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Those who come back from death are less than they were.  Lost memory is one irreversible side effect of death.  The body doesn't repair the damage.  The resurrected body functions despite of the physical injuries and the damage done.  Jon was gravely injured in many parts.  He may no longer have the ability to speak.  He may have increased strength in his working limbs like Weymar.  

Jon could come back perfect if a combination of methods of resurrection are used. Fire magic seems to consume memory (Beric forgets) but ice magic preserves (wights remember). If the body is raised shortly after death by fire magic, wounds will be healed (Beric is healed each time, even if he has scars - contrasted with Stoneheart who rots for days in the river before raising). Ice preserving the body may allow a healing by fire magic even if the body remains dead for a while (Bran's vision of Jon is in an ice cell,  with all warmth leaving him).

If Patchface was restored by water magic and sexual magic (smallfolk think a mermaid was involved), then he could return with normal body functions including eating, drinking and the need for sleep. Patchface is normal in this respect. Another clue to this is the Damphair returning his acolytes in perfect condition. Yes, it's CPR but suggests a water raising can restore body functions, meaning a beating heart, blood circulation, no wasting away, no pale cold skin and no black hands or "bad blood". 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:52 PM, LongRider said:

Bran badly injured from a fall, saved with the help of direwolves and the The Eyed-Crow. (magic)

Dany, burned on Drogo's funeral pyre, lived through it by magic.  What sort of magic?  I'm not sure.
 

Really caught my eye reading through.  They didn't die and they really should have.  If I recall correctly Bran also ran a fever.  I am never sure what's going on with Jon other than I don't think he's dead.  Beyond that I have nothing.  Dany and Bran sort of put themselves in the circumstances of their transformations, politics aside, Jon didn't.  He was attacked, plain and simple.  Maybe the politics can't be put aside and he needs to have done it to himself?  What sort of magic indeed?  

Being a creature of both fire and ice I would think that Jon will come back to himself with the aid of both forces.  Perhaps a kiss to restore fire to his soul and awaken that 3rd eye he will have to depend on in this 2nd life in himself? 

[LongRider]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Being a creature of both fire and ice I would think that Jon will come back to himself with the aid of both forces.  Perhaps a kiss to restore fire to his soul and awaken that 3rd eye he will have to depend on in this 2nd life in himself? 

This where I get hung up.   He could be nursed back to health from near death, during which Bran helps him to open his third eye. (what I want.)  Bran didn't need to die, just to get really close to death, to open his third eye, with help.

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

Jon could come back perfect if a combination of methods of resurrection are used. ....snip......

If Patchface was restored by water magic and sexual magic ....snip...Another clue to this is the Damphair returning his acolytes in perfect condition. Yes, it's CPR but suggests a water raising can restore body functions, .....snip.....

These two I haven't thought about.  Patchface should of died, yes, and we don't really know why/how he lived.  Damphair using CPR to save his acolytes, isn't magic though.  I am on the fence about Jon, don't want him dead, don't like the idea of him coming back from the dead.  Close to death and healed, could live with that.    

[Evolett]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:07 PM, LongRider said:

Damphair using CPR to save his acolytes, isn't magic though.

I'm not saying Damphair employed magic, was but it seems to hint at the possibility that water magic may also play a role in raising the dead. Patchface rose from the sea, with the fisherfolk saying a mermaid was involved - that she taught him to breathe (in other words, gave him back life) in return for his seed. Could this also be a hint at the power of water magic or am I presuming too much by ascribing water magic to a mermaid?

There is also the Shrouded Lord:

Quote

“The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin’s day,” said Yandry. “Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave.” 

We know the Rhoynar practiced water magic to make the Mother Rhoyne rise and to make deserts bloom. Might the above suggest water magic can also be used to raise the dead?

Then there is Miiri's ceremony in the tent. She required Drogo to be placed in a tub of water in which she sprinkled certain herbs. This was followed by the blood of the slain horse. All these components played a part in the ritual to restore life. Water is life, without it there is no life. Together with the blood that has also been linked to maintaining beauty (bathing in blood), it suggests water and blood have a restorative effect on the body. No doubt the herbs play a part too. Drogo returned with his body restored, his wound completely healed. He could eat, drink and sleep, though he lost his wits. And in this, he is similar to Patchface. Anyway, that's just my take on what water magic might contribute to a perfect raising if used in combination with fire and what we think of as ice magic:

Fire - healing of wounds, independent thought, preservation of intelligence
Ice - preservation of memory 
Water - restoration of the functions of the body.

 

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

Fire - healing of wounds, independent thought, preservation of intelligence
Ice - preservation of memory 
Water - restoration of the functions of the body.

Interesting, the water though, also ice is frozen water. 

Fire…Mel’s kiss

Ice…his body on ice

Water…here is where Val makes her move.

 I don’t know, seems easier if he’s near death and Bran can bring him back.

 In my view, the Varamyr chapter  was seen by some in the fandom as the idea of death > 2nd life > resurrection.  That trope is now seen as what will happen instead of what may happen.  

I don’t know what will happen, but that idea doesn’t sit well with me.  Would GRRM give that much away?   We’ll see.  I am preparing to be wrong and have GRRM totally surprise me.

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I think we can all agree that Jon will be back, his story is unfinished. He can’t die until the end. He is the closest thing we have to a protagonist in the War for the Dawn story.

[LongRider]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

No doubt the herbs play a part too. Drogo returned with his body restored, his wound completely healed.

I thought about Val and water and thought of bathing Jon like Drogo, then thought, heating that much water at the Wall, hmmm, perhaps a basin of warm water with herbs ect,.   Especially if the body is alive.

Signed,

That annoying ‘Jon isn’t dead’ person. 

[Willam Stark]

33 minutes ago, King Robb of Winterfell said:

I think we can all agree that Jon will be back, his story is unfinished. He can’t die until the end. He is the closest thing we have to a protagonist in the War for the Dawn story.

I agree, especially because GRRM never confirmed his death while he did it for Beric who died once, and came back to life as a fire wight. Jon will have a NDE, just like Bran and fully awake his warg gift.

[kissdbyfire]

Jon’s death? What death? Has a new book been published that I’m unaware of by any chance?