Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 9 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said: The madness is mostly public slander concocted by the political enemies of the Targaryens. What makes you think so? 9 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said: Maegor did the right thing to stop a dangerous religious cult. He should have persecuted the faith more than he did. Maegor was a lunatic whether he did the right thing here or not. 9 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said: Baelor is not different from those religious nutjobs in the north feeding humans to the trees. Who is doing this? 9 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said: The maesters were probably sabotaging the reign of Aerys II and gave him drugs to ruin his mind. I hope Marwyn exposes the maesters. LOL Any proof or more fanfic? Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: 9 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said: Baelor is not different from those religious nutjobs in the north feeding humans to the trees. Who is doing this? All of the Starks, all of them, even the unborn ones, the dead ones, the ones that only existed in myth and song. So many Starks, so many trees. It's obvious really. Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, LongRider said: All of the Starks, all of them, even the unborn ones, the dead ones, the ones that only existed in myth and song. So many Starks, so many trees. It's obvious really. Ahh I see. My bad lol LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 I think it’s an accurate assumption. If my aunt turned out to be an inbred who had a deathtoll of perhaps over 100.000 people to her name and reputedly fed children to wabid wild animals, I’d go insane too, especially if she was to come my side of the ocean with intentions that would result in more death. Who wouldn’t? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said: I think it’s an accurate assumption. If my aunt turned out to be an inbred who had a deathtoll of perhaps over 100.000 people to her name and reputedly fed children to wabid wild animals, I’d go insane too, especially if she was to come my side of the ocean with intentions that would result in more death. Who wouldn’t? I think Jon has above average mental fortitude though. Lyanna<3Rhaegar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I think Jon has above average mental fortitude though. With that genetic makeup? Honestly I’m surprised he hasn’t gone berserk and caved in the head of a friend or two in the yard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: With that genetic makeup? Well, Jon isn't inbred. Despite the absolutely ludicrous premise of this thread stating otherwise, incest greatly increases likelihood of negative traits being passed onto future generations. Ser Arthurs Dawn and Lyanna<3Rhaegar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, StarkTullies said: Well, Jon isn't inbred. Despite the absolutely ludicrous premise of this thread stating otherwise, incest greatly increases likelihood of negative traits being passed onto future generations. No but his father is. I think Rhaegar was probably insane, seeing prophecies out of nowhere, prophecies that require him to kidnap and rape highborn ladies and cause war. Sorry but just doesn’t seem like what a sane person would do. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of the Dragon Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: No but his father is. I think Rhaegar was probably insane, seeing prophecies out of nowhere, prophecies that require him to kidnap and rape highborn ladies and cause war. Sorry but just doesn’t seem like what a sane person would do Although you are oversimplifying the issue, I understand your main point. Jon is really Rhaegar's son in this sense. See how both of them acted arbitrarily with a prophecy or inspiration or whatever else they somehow considered to be their only duty, and well, we saw the result. Both of them were killed and it was their own fault, It means that somehow they tasted their own cooking and it does not depend on intelligence and mental strength and the like, because Martin created them both Byronically and Byronic heroes can be very clever and intelligent (they are even very deceptive). But even so, both of them really had many weaknesses, which at that point of time makes them unfit to perform such heavy tasks on their own. Rhaegar, without informing anyone and by himself, wanted to fulfill the greatest prophecy known. What was the result? He drowned Westeros in blood, and even after all these years, most people even mistakenly looked at him as a crazed rapist. This is also true for his stubborn son. Jon also intended to make the most important decisions about the biggest threat of his time by himself, But in the end, he brought the Night's Watch into disarray, and like his father, even with the right intention, he failed (and was killed. Now we agree about Jon's death, don't we?) This is another characteristic of Byronic heroes, who are either immature or tragically failed, or even in the case of victory, their success is tied by a hair's breadth and often does not work. About the post Well, it's really ridiculous that Jon will go crazy. It took five books for Dany to reach a stage that makes us wonder if she has chosen fire and blood (insanity, as some of you call it) Then, after five books, should we go to a man who is in no way paired with madness? I don't even think Daenerys will go crazy, let alone Jon. (Finally, I apologize if my English was poor. As you may know, English is not my native language.) Edited June 21, 2023 by Fist of the Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Fist of the Dragon said: Although you are oversimplifying the issue, I understand your main point. Jon is really Rhaegar's son in this sense. See how both of them acted arbitrarily with a prophecy or inspiration or whatever else they somehow considered to be their only duty, and well, we saw the result. Both of them were killed and it was their own fault, It means that somehow they tasted their own cooking and it does not depend on intelligence and mental strength and the like, because Martin created them both Byronically and Byronic heroes can be very clever and intelligent (they are even very deceptive). But even so, both of them really had many weaknesses, which at that point of time makes them unfit to perform such heavy tasks on their own. Rhaegar, without informing anyone and by himself, wanted to fulfill the greatest prophecy known. What was the result? He drowned Westeros in blood, and even after all these years, most people even mistakenly looked at him as a crazed rapist. This is also true for his stubborn son. Jon also intended to make the most important decisions about the biggest threat of his time by himself, But in the end, he brought the Night's Watch into disarray, and like his father, even with the right intention, he failed (and was killed. Now we agree about Jon's death, don't we?) This is another characteristic of Byronic heroes, who are either immature or tragically failed, or even in the case of victory, their success is tied by a hair's breadth and often does not work. About the post Well, it's really ridiculous that Jon will go crazy. It took five books for Dany to reach a stage that makes us wonder if she has chosen fire and blood (insanity, as some of you call it) Then, after five books, should we go to a man who is in no way paired with madness? I don't even think Daenerys will go crazy, let alone Jon. (Finally, I apologize if my English was poor. As you may know, English is not my native language.) I don’t think Jon is dead and he didn’t act alone at all, the foundations of his action had been laid together with Stannis. As for Dany, even in first book she is “hurr durr Imma blud of da dragunz”, it didn’t take her 5 books to burn people alive etc. It only got worse over time and increase in scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of the Dragon Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: I don’t think Jon is dead and he didn’t act alone at all, the foundations of his action had been laid together with Stannis. Well, I think (almost certain) that Jon died at the end of the dance. I don't know which of Jon's decisions you mean by cooperation with Stannis, but as far as I can remember, Jon did not cooperate with Stannis in the decision that led to his death. 53 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: As for Dany, even in first book she is “hurr durr Imma blud of da dragunz”, it didn’t take her 5 books to burn people alive etc. It only got worse over time and increase in scale. Look, if you want to continue the discussion with these kinds of arguments, it's better to end it here. But if you show correct and logical reasons for your opinion, I would like to read it. Edited June 21, 2023 by Fist of the Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 50 minutes ago, Fist of the Dragon said: Look, if you want to continue the discussion with these kinds of arguments, it's better to end it here. But if you show correct and logical reasons for your opinion, I would like to read it. Look, I’ll just put you in ignore and we’ll end it there, how about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of the Dragon Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 53 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Look, I’ll just put you in ignore and we’ll end it there, how about that? Yes, you do this, otherwise I will be surprised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: No but his father is. I think Rhaegar was probably insane, seeing prophecies out of nowhere, prophecies that require him to kidnap and rape highborn ladies and cause war. Sorry but just doesn’t seem like what a sane person would do. I don't think he was crazy or seeing prophecies out of nowhere. We do have prophecies present in the books, it's a magical world so no reason to think a person following a prophecy is crazy. We also don't know he kidnapped & raped anyone. Clearly we don't know the whole story of Lyanna & Rhaegar. LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: don’t think Jon is dead and he didn’t act alone at all, the foundations of his action had been laid together with Stannis. I can agree with this but still maintain he made the correct decision. 3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: As for Dany, even in first book she is “hurr durr Imma blud of da dragunz”, it didn’t take her 5 books to burn people alive etc. It only got worse over time and increase in scale. Definitely maybe. I think Dany is still at a precipice & could still fall either way. I'm hopeful she will not go crazy & burn the world but it certainly could happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: We also don't know he kidnapped & raped anyone. Clearly we don't know the whole story of Lyanna & Rhaegar. Oh I don't believe that, but from the perspective of an in-universe person this is exactly how it happened. As for the crazy part, I think he was, or at least was on his way there. Taking a highborn maid for some prophecy and causing a war is nothing no sane person would ever do. Lyanna<3Rhaegar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 5 hours ago, Fist of the Dragon said: Although you are oversimplifying the issue, I understand your main point. Jon is really Rhaegar's son in this sense. See how both of them acted arbitrarily with a prophecy or inspiration or whatever else they somehow considered to be their only duty, and well, we saw the result. Both of them were killed and it was their own fault, It means that somehow they tasted their own cooking and it does not depend on intelligence and mental strength and the like, because Martin created them both Byronically and Byronic heroes can be very clever and intelligent (they are even very deceptive). But even so, both of them really had many weaknesses, which at that point of time makes them unfit to perform such heavy tasks on their own. Rhaegar, without informing anyone and by himself, wanted to fulfill the greatest prophecy known. What was the result? He drowned Westeros in blood, and even after all these years, most people even mistakenly looked at him as a crazed rapist. This is also true for his stubborn son. Jon also intended to make the most important decisions about the biggest threat of his time by himself, But in the end, he brought the Night's Watch into disarray, and like his father, even with the right intention, he failed (and was killed. Now we agree about Jon's death, don't we?) I see the parallels but disagree that Jon brought his death on himself. Rhaegar may have, I hold judgment until we have the full story. But Jon made a decisions for the good of the realm. The people who stabbed him are at fault for his (f?)death. Corvo the Crow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Just now, Corvo the Crow said: Oh I don't believe that, but from the perspective of an in-universe person this is exactly how it happened. As for the crazy part, I think he was, or at least was on his way there. Taking a highborn maid for some prophecy and causing a war is nothing no sane person would ever do. Yeah I get it. I think he made bad decisions but without knowing his full reasoning behind it, I'm not prepared to call him insane. I think a highborn maid is a small price to pay to save the realm really & while I understand the consequences that follow & wish Rhaegar would have shared his plan, if nothing else to avoid some bloodshed, there may have been reasons he couldn't, or reasons he wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 10 hours ago, StarkTullies said: Well, Jon isn't inbred. Despite the absolutely ludicrous premise of this thread stating otherwise, incest greatly increases likelihood of negative traits being passed onto future generations. Is there any evidence that this is true for the Targaryens? Most of the 'mad' Targaryens (Aerion, Rhaegal, arguably Baelor) were not the product of incestous unions. The Targaryens were often megalomaniac due to their upbringing and propensity for dragon dreams, but this is not the same as proper 'madness'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csuszka1948 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: As for Dany, even in first book she is “hurr durr Imma blud of da dragunz”, it didn’t take her 5 books to burn people alive etc. It only got worse over time and increase in scale. How many people did Dany actually burn alive? The number is probably less than a hundred (MMD+some slave masters in Astapor). As for the destroying part, Astapor was destroyed by the slavers, not Dany. If you fully attribute the destruction of Astapor to Dany for trying to do the right thing and failing, you should also attribute most of the deaths during the War of the 5 Kings to Ned because he (in his 'madness') tried to do what he believed the right thing. Besides that, you have to calculate in the number of lives Dany saved: he destroyed the source of Unsullied and by that, she saved 8 thousand slaves per year from the fate of becoming Unsullied or dying (2000 Unsullied are produced per year, but only third of them survives and all survivors have to kill a baby). Edited June 21, 2023 by csuszka1948 Ser Arthurs Dawn, SeanF and Daeron the Daring 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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