Jon Snow is likely to go insane

[Craving Peaches]

59 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For that to work, Dany must be portrayed as a carpet-chewing villain.

It also conflicts with most of Jon's character...

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It also conflicts with most of Jon's character...

Jon can be pretty ruthless.  But, pretty ruthless does not mean "complete sociopath."

[csuszka1948]

I don't think Dany becoming a full-fledged villain would work from a storytelling perspective, because there are only two books left, and Dany will arrive Westerosthe same book the Others invade.

Dany has been built up as one of the main characters (and the one with dragons and the largest army) for 6 books and the Others as the primary antagonists for 6 books. This means you cannot have both of them as antagonists in the same book and have a bittersweet ending.

Why? Because it's bad storytelling. Let me explain the three options I see:

a) Dany concentrates on winning the Throne and ignores the Others. It's unviable to think that somehow Westeros at its state at the end of TWOW would be able to withstand both the Others and Dany, they should lose and life should die out.

b) Dany concentrates on both defeating the Others and then winning the Throne, becoming somewhat of a villain. Considering her numerical superiority and dragons, she should be a pretty frightening final villain and realistically - and from a storytelling perspective: she would be a villain that did all the hard work, just like Palpatine in Star Wars - should win, bringing tyranny on Westeros. This is not bittersweet ending, this is a bitter ending.

c) Dany concentrates on defeating the Others and winning the Throne, but is still defeated by some treachery. This is the way the show has gone and it's bad (horrible) storytelling.

Dany is built up as a character for 6 books and if she becomes the villain, she should be the main villain, a capable and frightening villain - someone who is actually willing to harm the main characters (in the show, she didn't even kill Tyrion who comitted treason against her in sight and allowed Jon to see him, she didn't even order Sansa killed for telling about Jon's parentage, she trusted Jon without searching him for a weapon after he betrayed her trust for telling others about his parentage), just like LF, Joffrey (Ned), Tywin (Robb), Euron (likely bringing down the Wall and death to important characters) - and not a joke and a simple storytelling element for the Starks to provide the necessary tools to defeat the Others then backstab. If this was her story, then it's pointless to introduce her as a POV.

If she is a villain, she cannot even have a tragic ending like Stannis because her tragedy would be a tragedy of circumstances (again, this is not a good tragic story) and she is too powerful character for this (unlike Stannis, whose main trait is unpopularity) and too important character to die from a random death/betrayal (like Renly).

Edited June 24, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think Dany becoming a full-fledged villain would work from a storytelling perspective, because there are only two books left, and Dany will arrive Westerosthe same book the Others invade.

Dany has been built up as one of the main characters (and the one with dragons and the largest army) for 6 books and the Others as the primary antagonists for 6 books. This means you cannot have both of them as antagonists in the same book and have a bittersweet ending.

Why? Because it's bad storytelling. Let me explain the three options I see:

a) Dany concentrates on winning the Throne and ignores the Others. It's unviable to think that somehow Westeros at its state at the end of TWOW would be able to withstand both the Others and Dany, they should lose and life should die out.

b) Dany concentrates on both defeating the Others and then winning the Throne, becoming somewhat of a villain. Considering her numerical superiority and dragons, she should be a pretty frightening final villain and realistically - and from a storytelling perspective: she would be a villain that did all the hard work, just like Palpatine in Star Wars - should win, bringing tyranny on Westeros. This is not bittersweet ending, this is a bitter ending.

c) Dany concentrates on defeating the Others and winning the Throne, but is still defeated by some treachery. This is the way the show has gone and it's bad (horrible) storytelling.

Dany is built up as a character for 6 books and if she becomes the villain, she should be the main villain, a capable and frightening villain - someone who is actually willing to harm the main characters (in the show, she didn't even kill Tyrion who comitted treason against her in sight and allowed Jon to see him, she didn't even order Sansa killed for telling about Jon's parentage, she trusted Jon without searching him for a weapon after he betrayed her trust for telling others about his parentage), just like LF, Joffrey (Ned), Tywin (Robb), Euron (likely bringing down the Wall and death to important characters) - and not a joke and a simple storytelling element for the Starks to provide the necessary tools to defeat the Others then backstab. If this was her story, then it's pointless to introduce her as a POV.

If she is a villain, she cannot even have a tragic ending like Stannis because her tragedy would be a tragedy of circumstances (again, this is not a good tragic story) and she is too powerful character for this (unlike Stannis, whose main trait is unpopularity) and too important character to die from a random death/betrayal (like Renly).

Dany being defeated by treachery works as an ending.  Sort of the way Sultan Qutuz defeated the Mongols at Ain Jalut, saving the Islamic world, only to be cut down on his return to Cairo.

And, Tyrion would be the man to do it, like Iago.

[csuszka1948]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany being defeated by treachery works as an ending.  Sort of the way Sultan Qutuz defeated the Mongols at Ain Jalut, saving the Islamic world, only to be cut down on his return to Cairo.

And, Tyrion would be the man to do it, like Iago.

 

 

 

 

 

How does it work if she becomes a villain?

Usually the 'Dany becomes a villain' stories include Dany becoming obsessed with prophecies, and Quaithe definitely warned her against Tyrion.

Also, why would Tyrion hate Dany? For murdering Jaime? You need to establish a motive, and so far Tyrion seemed to like her and he tends to show gratefulness to those who saved him. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

How does it work if she becomes a villain?

Usually the 'Dany becomes a villain' stories include Dany becoming obsessed with prophecies, and Quaithe definitely warned her against Tyrion.

Also, why would Tyrion hate Dany? For murdering Jaime? You need to establish a motive, and so far Tyrion seemed to like her and he tends to show gratefulness to those who saved him. 

For Tyrion, the motivation would be extreme sexual jealousy, which the show sort of hinted it.  Tyrion does not respond well to rejection. So, he talks Jon into thinking she’s a threat to his family.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen. 

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

Jon's chances of losing his mind are exponentially greater than Dany's chances.  Even more so now after Bowen Marsh and the brother punctured him in multiple places.  His anger and hate started to build as he lay dying.  I don't think Jon will forget that during death and when the WW revive him his mind will be partially gone.  Just like Cat's mind has decayed. 

[Corvo the Crow]

24 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Jon's chances of losing his mind are exponentially greater than Dany's chances.  Even more so now after Bowen Marsh and the brother punctured him in multiple places.  His anger and hate started to build as he lay dying.  I don't think Jon will forget that during death and when the WW revive him his mind will be partially gone.  Just like Cat's mind has decayed. 

Getting revived cause mind decay? Interesting. So I guess getting reborn in flames would cause serious brain damage, from the burns if nothing else.

[Darth Sidious]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:15 AM, SeanF said:

Jon can be pretty ruthless.  But, pretty ruthless does not mean "complete sociopath."

Jon is consistently emotionally unbalanced. He always had a chip on his shoulder that was barely staying on. 

[Sydney Mae]

He was erratic.  His behavior can go from somewhat calm to violent in a flash.  He has very thin skin and he reacts violently.  Very much like his uncle brandon or father as some fans believe. 

15 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon is consistently emotionally unbalanced. He always had a chip on his shoulder that was barely staying on. 

 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Jon has no chance of going insane. Closest we’ll possibly get is the Other’s hijacking his body. It’s on the same level of delusion as saying Dany will go insane and start mowing down civilians.

Jon will be changed by his revival in that he’ll be pissed and traumatized. He’ll throw Ned’s honor out the window, and will bring harsh justice down on those who betrayed him. He’ll be merciless and more assertive. If Robb’s Will makes it to him, I could easily see him pursing the Northern throne.

Dany’s story has always been about the conflict of her wanting to do right & failing miserably, and embracing her Targaryen heritage of just burning her enemies to ash. If she comes to Westeros all in her Fire & Blood feels, I can easily see her going tyrant in order to push her will. She wouldn’t be nuts. 
 

Hell, in an interview GRRM pretty much says Dany is a threat to Westeros, just as the Others are. It’s well within the cards for Daenerys to become an antagonist, just as it is that Jon could stay dead and his body be stolen for the Others.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:46 AM, Sydney Mae said:

He was erratic.  His behavior can go from somewhat calm to violent in a flash.  He has very thin skin and he reacts violently.  Very much like his uncle brandon or father as some fans believe. 

 

Sorry, but this is the biggest bunch of BS I think I've ever seen. When? When did his behavior go from calm to violent in a flash? I remember him going a little beserk, but it certainly wasn't in a flash, it was after being pushed & pushed & pushed. Pretty much every person in this HUGE story has reacted violently. It's a violent series, they are in a violent time & are currently fighting wars. Surely you don't mean to say, of all the violence in the series, it's Jon Snow's violence that stands out to you? I figure you will probably ignore this much like anyone else who spouts non-sense but on the off chance you will respond, I would be curious as to the evidence you have to back your claims. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 6/25/2023 at 3:03 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Getting revived cause mind decay? Interesting. So I guess getting reborn in flames would cause serious brain damage, from the burns if nothing else.

Now, don't be coming in here applying logic & reason to the nonsense. Jon is bad, evil personified, & nuttier than a fruitcake. 

 

I'm being sarcastic, just in case it doesn't translate well through text. 

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, but this is the biggest bunch of BS I think I've ever seen. When? When did his behavior go from calm to violent in a flash? I remember him going a little beserk, but it certainly wasn't in a flash, it was after being pushed & pushed & pushed. Pretty much every person in this HUGE story has reacted violently. It's a violent series, they are in a violent time & are currently fighting wars. Surely you don't mean to say, of all the violence in the series, it's Jon Snow's violence that stands out to you? I figure you will probably ignore this much like anyone else who spouts non-sense but on the off chance you will respond, I would be curious as to the evidence you have to back your claims. 

 

The only time I can think of, was when Jon tried to kill Alliser Throne in the first book. This happens shortly after Jon learns his father has been arrested for the crime of being a traitor and Jon overhears Throne mocking him, calling him "not just a bastard, but a traitors bastard". Jon goes a little nuts in this scene and tries to stab Throne with a knife. Sam is eventually able to snap some sense back into Jon.

Aside from this scene however, I really can't think of any other times, Jon hasn't been perfectly sane.

edit: FYI, the person you were responding to was a troll who likes to mock Jon.

Edited June 28, 2023 by sifth

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

The only time I can think of, was when Jon tried to kill Alliser Throne in the first book. This happens shortly after Jon learns his father has been arrested for the crime of being a traitor and Jon overhears Throne mocking him, calling him "not just a bastard, but a traitors bastard". Jon goes a little nuts in this scene and tries to stab Throne with a knife. Sam is eventually able to snap some sense back into Jon.

Aside from this scene however, I really can't think of any other times, Jon hasn't been perfectly sane.

edit: FYI, the person you were responding to was a troll who likes to mock Jon.

Apparently him announcing his plan to fight Ramsay is "psychotic/mad behavior" as well. I've seen that more than once. But stabbing your LC to death is totally normal.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

Aside from this scene however, I really can't think of any other times, Jon hasn't been perfectly sane.

There was also the time where he was sparring with Emmet, Emmett mentioned something and then Jon had a childhood flashback then blacked out, and then when he came to he had rather savagely beaten Emmett...

[csuszka1948]

42 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Apparently him announcing his plan to fight Ramsay is "psychotic/mad behavior" as well. I've seen that more than once. But stabbing your LC to death is totally normal.

 

I think it has many clever elements - because it's meant to convince the wildlings - but the plan he announces ('marching to WF') seems stupid (so it's probably not the original plan) and it absolutely looks mad for Bowen Marsh and his group, that's why they assassinate him.

That said, Dany betraying the slavers in Astapor also looks absolutely mad behaviour from their perspective, it's breaking with the norms of their society so much.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was also the time where he was sparring with Emmet, Emmett mentioned something and then Jon had a childhood flashback then blacked out, and then when he came to he had rather savagely beaten Emmett...

Right, good call. I nearly forgot about that. I guess Jon has a bit of the "dragon temper" we're told many Targs have. Jon was under a lot of stress during that sparring session as well, having to choose between leaving the Watch and joining Stannis or staying and likely being killed by Janos Slynt. Poor Emmett, since he seems like a really nice guy, but I don't think Jon is going insane, I think he just has a bad temper and can't always control himself.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was also the time where he was sparring with Emmet, Emmett mentioned something and then Jon had a childhood flashback then blacked out, and then when he came to he had rather savagely beaten Emmett...

I can't wait for Jon to get such a blackout fighting against wights, the Wall is getting assaulted by wights which climb the wall, brothers of the Watch die left and right, suddenly a wight pulls him, he falls from the Wall and blacks out and the next thing we see he is standing just outside the wall with thousands upon thousands of wights slain and the Others bending the knee and swearing fealty to him as if they were Akaviri Dragonguard bowing before Reman in the Pale Pass. Obviously the next step that follows is hunting dragons. 

[Craving Peaches]

40 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Akaviri Dragonguard bowing before Reman in the Pale Pass. Obviously the next step that follows is hunting dragons. 

I want to see Jon use Fus Ro Da.