Jon Snow is likely to go insane

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Is there any evidence that this is true for the Targaryens? Most of the 'mad' Targaryens (Aerion, Rhaegal, arguably Baelor) were not the product of incestous unions.

The Targaryens were often megalomaniac due to their upbringing and propensity for dragon dreams, but this is not the same as proper 'madness'.

In-universe genetics don’t match out of universe genetics.  The Targaryens are healthier than the Ptolmies or Hapsburgs.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

How many people did Dany actually burn alive? The number is probably less than a hundred (MMD+some slave masters in Astapor).

As for the destroying part, Astapor was destroyed by the slavers, not Dany. If you fully attribute the destruction of Astapor to Dany for trying to do the right thing and failing, you should also attribute most of the deaths during the War of the 5 Kings to Ned because he (in his 'madness') tried to do what he believed the right thing.

Besides that, you have to calculate in the number of lives Dany saved: he destroyed the source of Unsullied and by that, she saved 8 thousand slaves per year from the fate of becoming Unsullied or dying (2000 Unsullied are produced per year, but only third of them survives and all survivors have to kill a baby).  

Cat frequently gets blamed for everybody’s actions in TWO5K, which is as daft as blaming Dany for all the actions of the Slavers.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by SeanF

[csuszka1948]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Cat frequently gets blamed for everybody’s actions in TWO5K, which is as daft as blaming Dany for all the actions of the Slavers.

 

 

Honestly, blaming Cat might be even worse. At least for Dany you can criticize her for the lack of foresight and long-term planning, but for Cat many people require her to have the same knowledge (about Jon Snow, about Tyrion, about LF) that the readers have.

My favorite case is when they say she was stupid to believe LF (with Varys on his side).

What reason would LF have to lie about the dagger, really? Even if he dislikes the Starks, by lying he puts himself into a big danger of being exposed and becoming the enemy of the Starks and Lannisters, and he gains nothing (why would anyone think that he wants war just for fun?). The fact is that LF was stupid to lie and his lie was a (not very well executed) plot device to start the war.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Honestly, blaming Cat might be even worse. At least for Dany you can criticize her for the lack of foresight and long-term planning, but for Cat many people require her to have the same knowledge (about Jon Snow, about Tyrion, about LF) that the readers have.

My favorite case is when they say she was stupid to believe LF (with Varys on his side).

What reason would LF have to lie about the dagger, really? Even if he dislikes the Starks, by lying he puts himself into a big danger of being exposed and becoming the enemy of the Starks and Lannisters, and he gains nothing (why would anyone think that he wants war just for fun?). The fact is that LF was stupid to lie and his lie was a (not very well executed) plot device to start the war.

Partly, it’s a case of the single cause fallacy.    Partly it’s a case of transferring moral responsibility away, from people who perform evil deeds, onto characters that the critic does not like.

People who murder, rape, and pillage, for their own profit and amusement, and/or to avenge “honour”, own those deeds, in each continent.

Edited June 21, 2023 by SeanF

[Corvo the Crow]

59 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

How many people did Dany actually burn alive? The number is probably less than a hundred (MMD+some slave masters in Astapor).

 

Point is he started burning people alive before even the first book ended. How many people did Jon freeze to death? Not even Cregan, who deserves it to the bone and it only happened in the last book. Dany's killings don't end there either and it's not just the slavers who die because of her. Her actions caused the death of nearly an entire city's worth of population, slaver and slave alike and death count just keeps going up.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

As for the destroying part, Astapor was destroyed by the slavers, not Dany. If you fully attribute the destruction of Astapor to Dany for trying to do the right thing and failing, you should also attribute most of the deaths during the War of the 5 Kings to Ned because he (in his 'madness') tried to do what he believed the right thing.

 

Not even close and no, the city was tearing eachother apart before slavers from other cities ever set foot in it. 

 

 

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Point is he started burning people alive before even the first book ended. How many people did Jon freeze to death? Not even Cregan, who deserves it to the bone and it only happened in the last book. Dany's killings don't end there either and it's not just the slavers who die because of her. Her actions caused the death of nearly an entire city's worth of population, slaver and slave alike and death count just keeps going up.

Not even close and no, the city was tearing eachother apart before slavers from other cities ever set foot in it. 

 

 

If you’re arguing that Dany is responsible for the actions of the slavers, and Cleon, then Jon is equally responsible for the actions of Ramsay Bolton, Janos Slynt, and Bowen Marsh.

It’s a silly argument, in each case.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by SeanF

[StarkTullies]

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Is there any evidence that this is true for the Targaryens? Most of the 'mad' Targaryens (Aerion, Rhaegal, arguably Baelor) were not the product of incestous unions.

The Targaryens were often megalomaniac due to their upbringing and propensity for dragon dreams, but this is not the same as proper 'madness'.

Well the maddest of them all, Mad King Aerys, was born of incest.  Some characters in the books believed that his son Viserys (also born of incest) was on that path too.

Regardless, I am not overly concerned about "Targaryen madness".  I agree with you that the worst Targaryens (except Aerys) behaved due to their narcissism, belief in superiority, and power-hunger.

My response was merely in regard to Jon's genes, saying that "Targaryen madness genes", if applicable, could very likely be repressed by other possibly more dominant genes.  His Stark genes certainly repressed his Targaryen genes when it comes to his appearance.

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 6/19/2023 at 12:35 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

S8 really broke people’s brains, huh?

What’s interesting is that despite how much Targ stans hate Sansa, most of the Stark-going-insane threads are about Jon or Arya (or demonic Bran). I can remember a not-so-distant past when the Unkiss was touted as proof that Sansa was undergoing a psychotic break. I think it may be because, for all the the rivalries among show fans, there’s still an overlap of Sansa and Dany book fans.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What’s interesting is that despite how much Targ stans hate Sansa, most of the Stark-going-insane threads are about Jon or Arya (or demonic Bran). I can remember a not-so-distant past when the Unkiss was touted as proof that Sansa was undergoing a psychotic break. I think it may be because, for all the the rivalries among show fans, there’s still an overlap of Sansa and Dany book fans.

Dany/Sansa is the second most popular femslash pairing, after Margaery/Sansa.

In the books, Sansa only appears unlikeable in Book 1, which I think is a holdover from Martin’s plan to make her an antagonist,  but she gets a lot better as she matures.

[csuszka1948]

15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What’s interesting is that despite how much Targ stans hate Sansa, most of the Stark-going-insane threads are about Jon or Arya (or demonic Bran). I can remember a not-so-distant past when the Unkiss was touted as proof that Sansa was undergoing a psychotic break. I think it may be because, for all the the rivalries among show fans, there’s still an overlap of Sansa and Dany book fans.

 

I think that's partly because 'dark Sansa' - someone who is willing to kill Sweetrobin for power - would be LF 2.0, and being a manipulative sociopath is not considered insanity, LF is not considered insane. Another reason is that many Dany fans who see Dany as a victim do the same with Sansa.

It's actually funny because I think from all Starks Dany would get along best with Arya and worst with Sansa.

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:24 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I posted a comment on this in 2017. 

If R + L = J is true, then Jon Snow is the one who will go insane.  He will have incidences of insanity from the Stark as well as the Targaryen side.  His kin, Arya Stark, is already insane. 

 

I edited, updated, and re-posted below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Rumors of Targaryen Madness is an Exaggeration.  And a slander against the ruling House Targaryen. 

 

The prevalence of the madness that runs in the family is exaggerated.  A careful study of the Targaryen lineage shows that this madness is not as prevalent as their enemies would have us believe.

 

    Targaryen + Targaryen = Maegor the Cruel
    Arryn + Targaryen = Rhaenyra
    Hightower + Targaryen = Aegon II
    Rogare + Targaryen = Aegon IV
    Velaryon + Targaryen = Baelor the Blessed
    Dayne + Targaryen = Aerion Brightflame
    Kiera + Targaryen = Vaela
    Targaryen + Targaryen = Aerys II

 

In red - female parent. Non-Targaryen female parent. 

Italics – unclear whether these people were mad or simply just cruel. Vaela is likely someone who just had a below average mental capacity. 

What interests me most is that the majority of the so-called “mad” members of the family were not the direct result of T + T but rather the result of what appears to be normal pairings.  A second item of note is that the madness happens more often when the mother comes from outside the family.  This means the carriers of the madness are the male Targaryens.  Thirdly, because we are dealing with a fantasy world in which real genetics may not completely hold true, we can assume that anyone whose father is a Targaryen will have an equal chance of going mad as any other member of the family with a Targaryen father.  Also note that we have not had a female Targaryen of whom we can clearly point out as mad.  None.  Rhaenyra was a b* but being a difficult person does not make one mad.  Maegor was cruel but that doesn’t mean he was mad.  If cruelty alone make one mad then Tywin and Stannis could be labeled insane. 

 

Implications are as follows:

 

    1.  The Targaryens are the most prominent family in the series of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I do not believe George R R Martin will end this family line.  I think the family just needed a fresh start and based on my theory that the males carry the potentially damaging gene it makes sense to eliminate the male line and begin anew with a perfect Targaryen female.  Who is, of course, the Mother of Dragons herself, Daenerys Targaryen.
    2.  The Targaryen dragons also needed a refresh.  The heroine delivered once more and hatched three eggs.
    3.  Daenerys Targaryen is just fine.  She will not go mad.  Her future children are not going to go mad. 
    4.  Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon.  Should this theory of his parentage prove to be true, that Rhaegar is the father and Lyanna Stark the mother, it is very likely that it will be Jon who will go insane.

 My verdict?  Jon has a much greater chance of going mad than Daenerys. 

Jon is more likely to go mad.  His bad temper and poor emotional control make him edgy.  We saw that during the banquet for Robert in Winterfell.  Its ugly head came up again when he attacked Ser Aliser.  Jon also lack the intellect to govern.  I can appreciate what he did for Samwell but beyond that I have a rather low opinion of Jon. 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Jon is more likely to go mad.  His bad temper and poor emotional control make him edgy.  We saw that during the banquet for Robert in Winterfell.  Its ugly head came up again when he attacked Ser Aliser.  Jon also lack the intellect to govern.  I can appreciate what he did for Samwell but beyond that I have a rather low opinion of Jon. 

I am really shocked by your thoughts. Your name didn't give me any clue at all!

[Moiraine Sedai]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What’s interesting is that despite how much Targ stans hate Sansa, most of the Stark-going-insane threads are about Jon or Arya (or demonic Bran). I can remember a not-so-distant past when the Unkiss was touted as proof that Sansa was undergoing a psychotic break. I think it may be because, for all the the rivalries among show fans, there’s still an overlap of Sansa and Dany book fans.

Sansa’s sins are not as bad as those from Jon and Arya.  

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

17 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sansa’s sins are not as bad as those from Jon and Arya.  

Jon has none. And Arya is not insane try again

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Dany/Sansa is the second most popular femslash pairing, after Margaery/Sansa.

I've seen way too much Dany vs Sansa fights and way too little Dany/Sansa pairings, so you're gonna have to recommend a good social site where I can find Dany and Sansa fans getting along lol. Most of you guys on here appreciate both characters and I just want to let you know it's been very refreshing. ♥♥♥

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What’s interesting is that despite how much Targ stans hate Sansa, most of the Stark-going-insane threads are about Jon or Arya (or demonic Bran). I can remember a not-so-distant past when the Unkiss was touted as proof that Sansa was undergoing a psychotic break. I think it may be because, for all the the rivalries among show fans, there’s still an overlap of Sansa and Dany book fans.

This has surprised me though!! On Tumblr, the Arya and Dany (Targaryen) stans stick together like glue, and it's them vs the Sansas. Both sides are guilty of overly demonizing the other. It's kind of horrific, yet entertaining lol.

 

Ps, if I had a dollar for every time I saw the word "delusional" thrown around on Tumblr asoiaf fandom, I'd be a rich lady.

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I've seen way too much Dany vs Sansa fights and way too little Dany/Sansa pairings, so you're gonna have to recommend a good social site where I can find Dany and Sansa fans getting along lol. Most of you guys on here appreciate both characters and I just want to let you know it's been very refreshing. ♥♥♥

 

27 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

This has surprised me though!! On Tumblr, the Arya and Dany (Targaryen) stans stick together like glue, and it's them vs the Sansas. Both sides are guilty of overly demonizing the other. It's kind of horrific, yet entertaining lol.

 

Ps, if I had a dollar for every time I saw the word "delusional" thrown around on Tumblr asoiaf fandom, I'd be a rich lady.

I do think Arya is a more natural close friendship for Dany than Sansa is.  Neither is a conventional member of their class.  Arya has spent her formative years on the run and then among an assassins' cult.  Dany has spent hers among Dothraki, sellswords, and soldiers.  Both have the ability to make friends among the smallfolk.  Compared to Sansa and Margaery, they would likely seem pretty coarse and unrefined among the noble ladies of Westeros.  One can't imagine Dany being happy doing embroidery, or writing poetry, any more than Arya.

As for Sansa/Dany, there is Archive of Our Own.

The funniest conflict in the fandom is that which pitches the madonna, Sansa, chastely in love with Jon Snow, against the whore, Daenerys, a woman who actually enjoys sex outside of marriage!  and trying to corrupt Jon. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by SeanF

[The Bard of Banefort]

While I agree that Dany and Arya would probably get along, I don’t think her and Sansa would be enemies. Book-Sansa would keep her head down and show Dany the deference that Dany desires. She would be wary around Dany and keep her guard up because she’s learned to be mistrusting of powerful people. She would always be polite, but she would still hold Dany at arm’s length.

4 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I've seen way too much Dany vs Sansa fights and way too little Dany/Sansa pairings, so you're gonna have to recommend a good social site where I can find Dany and Sansa fans getting along lol. Most of you guys on here appreciate both characters and I just want to let you know it's been very refreshing. ♥♥♥

The Targ stans who hate Arya do so because they see Arya as more murderous and vengeful than Dany, and are bitter that she still got to be a hero at the end while Dany was a villain.

[Fist of the Dragon]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

As for Sansa/Dany, there is Archive of Our Own.

The funniest conflict in the fandom is that which pitches the madonna, Sansa, chastely in love with Jon Snow, against the whore, Daenerys, a woman who actually enjoys sex outside of marriage!  and trying to corrupt Jon. 

 

But the importance of Jon/Tormund(Like what we most likely saw at the end of the show), which Martin laid the foundations of, should not be neglected, for example, where Tormund keeps telling Jon about his big dick, which is apparently the size of his own arm.
This shows that Tormund is planning to drag Jon to the same famous cave (the same cave of Ygritte).
And then he says the famous line ''you know nothing, Jon Snow'' and finally pulls down his pants and ....... (let me finish it right here)

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

 

But the importance of Jon/Tormund(Like what we most likely saw at the end of the show), which Martin laid the foundations of, should not be neglected, for example, where Tormund keeps telling Jon about his big dick, which is apparently the size of his own arm.
This shows that Tormund is planning to drag Jon to the same famous cave (the same cave of Ygritte).
And then he says the famous line ''you know nothing, Jon Snow'' and finally pulls down his pants and ....... (let me finish it right here)

The “Political Jons” are the worst.  They theorise that Jon will seduce/ pledge fealty to Daenerys, to get an army and dragons, while planning her murder down the line, in order to be with Sansa, his true love.

For that to work, Dany must be portrayed as a carpet-chewing villain.