Sansa and Harry the Heir

[Gilbert Green]

18 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It could be as simple as that, given how much of a womaniser Harrold is.

Womanizing nobility don't need to marry to get pretty girls as Harry has already proven.  And if he was so impressed by her looks, why wasn't he a little nicer when he first met her?  Even if he had no intent in marrying her, he might have tried to seduce her.  

Instead, he makes the bizarre choice of burning his bridges with her -- only to have to try to rebuild them later.

As Sweetrobin guesses, no doubt correctly, Harry is waiting for Sweetrobin to die so he can inherit the Vale.  All the more reason why LF's bastard daughter should be beneath such as he.  All the more reason why the proposed marriage is an insult to his (anticipated) status.

But wait?  What if Sweetrobin does not die?  What if Sweetrobin lives long enough to produce an heir?  Then Harry will never inherit the Vale.

My guess:  It finally dawned on Harry, perhaps after LF dropped enough hints, that whether or not Sweetrobin dies may depend on Sweetrobin's "Lord Protector".   LF won't make sure that Sweetrobin dies unless Harry makes sure there's something in it for LF.   So Harry must play LF's game (whatever that is) and marry LF's "natural daughter".

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 1/21/2023 at 10:18 AM, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Sansa isn't smart but she has a lot of ambitions.  Harry is the way.  But first they have to do something very bad.  Get Sweetrobin out of the way.  Those two will fall in love, do the crime, and go down together like a medieval Bonnie and Clyde.  

Sansa is actually very smart, I'm not sure where people get the idea that she's dumb. Is it because she can't uncover people's true intentions? That's an extremely difficult feat to achieve. Or is it because she still expects people to act with honor and kindness? Tbf, Ned had that tendency himself. He was distrustful, but assumed people would take the more honorable approach/course. Some people deem her love of romance and stories as stupidity when it's really just a common trait in many people. It's a safe fantasy for a girl her age. She is naive at times, but she's not stupid.

Sansa is extremely well read and educated in history. And she very clearly has an excellent memory as she will bring up historical and literary trivia on a whim's notice, depending on the conversation she is in. She has memorized just about every house and sigil in Westeros. She can read and write better than her two older brothers, she plays two instruments, and she is rightly suspicious of everyone around her. After her father's death, she never takes what is said to her at face value. She analyzes people's behavior and questions their motives. She's surrounded by far more experienced players. She is currently in the hands of the most successful player in the books and she is already beginning to differentiate between Littlefinger and Petyr Baelish. She has moments of boldness and rebellion which is always laced in fear of punishment.

Her story arc is much slower than pretty much everyone else's. In King's Landing, when she wasn't being publicly beaten or scrutinized, she used stories and songs as coping mechanisms. She has more time on her hands to daydream than say Arya, Bran, or Jon. After all, she is completely alone with no one willing to help her for her. Every aid that she receives is in the interest of an experienced player, and she is aware of this. She's just a young girl that's in over her head, surrounded by schemers.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

59 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I hate drinking, but the day Littlefinger begins to suffer from his own game I'm going to open a bottle of wine and relish in the moment.

I recommend Arbor gold.  

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But I don't see why a Royce would object to an Arryn heir with FM blood. He'll probably wed his own daughter to Timett.

About as eager as the Flints would be to marry a daughter to the Weeper, I should think. Why do people like Timett so much? He's just another version of the wildling who terrifies the other wildlings.

[LongRider]

Winter has arrived at the Vale, and for the clans, they wouldn’t be fighting just the Vale armies, but hunger as well.  
The Vale is well provisioned as seen in the Alayne chapter.  How much food and fodder clans provide for their warriors and beasts?  How long could they supply the armies with needed provisions?  Armies fight on their stomachs it is said.  The clans would understand that, me thinks, so I don’t see them fighting the Vale. 

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

About as eager as the Flints would be to marry a daughter to the Weeper, I should think. Why do people like Timett so much? He's just another version of the wildling who terrifies the other wildlings.

There's a difference between someone who puts out the eyes of other people and someone who puts out his own eye. The sole bad thing we ever hear of him is that he harms someone who tried to cheat him - he choked and tore through the throat of the cheater with his fingers. But he treats anybody else with basic human respect, including prostitutes.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Winter has arrived at the Vale, and for the clans, they wouldn’t be fighting just the Vale armies, but hunger as well.  
The Vale is well provisioned as seen in the Alayne chapter.  How much food and fodder clans provide for their warriors and beasts?  How long could they supply the armies with needed provisions?  Armies fight on their stomachs it is said.  The clans would understand that, me thinks, so I don’t see them fighting the Vale. 

Is that not what the mountain clans are doing in Stannis' army against a well provisioned Winterfell?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

When Tyrion made that promise, Wardens were a big deal in the story. More important stuff than the mountain clans fell victim to the writing process.

What do you think will happen in the Vale going forward?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

There's a difference between someone who puts out the eyes of other people and someone who puts out his own eye. The sole bad thing we ever hear of him is that he harms someone who tried to cheat him - he choked and tore through the throat of the cheater with his fingers. But he treats anybody else with basic human respect, including prostitutes.

That's a generous view.

One of the reasons Kingslanders hate Tyrion is because his wildlings are acting wild and it hurts. We don't get a view of it happening, but Shagga assuming the serving girl is available for sex, and Timett calling her a whore in a city of whores shows there's not much restraint or respect among them. There's nothing suggesting that the Burned Men are more civilised than the rest, and Timmet's murder of the cheater proves they aren't.

The rest is beyond guessing, but there must be some reason other clans are afraid of the Burned Men, and the Burned Men are afraid of Timett. So afraid that Timett rides alone.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

That's a generous view.

One of the reasons Kingslanders hate Tyrion is because his wildlings are acting wild and it hurts. We don't get a view of it happening, but Shagga assuming the serving girl is available for sex, and Timett calling her a whore in a city of whores shows there's not much restraint or respect among them. There's nothing suggesting that the Burned Men are more civilised than the rest, and Timmet's murder of the cheater proves they aren't.

The rest is beyond guessing, but there must be some reason other clans are afraid of the Burned Men, and the Burned Men are afraid of Timett. So afraid that Timett rides alone.

That serving girl was found stark naked in Pycelle's bed. The scene shows that Shagga does not comprehend the concept of prostitution, but Timett does. Shagga wants the woman for sex as if she's some prize, while Timett recognizes the woman needs to earn a living. That's why Tyrion trusts Timett to escort her out without raping her over Shagga.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I don't see any valeman accepting a clanman was a lord, nor would they accept any evidence of Timett having Arryn blood. 

Any distant cousin not even wearing the Arryn name would be accepted as lord of the Vale long before any mountain clanman. 

[Springwatch]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That serving girl was found stark naked in Pycelle's bed. The scene shows that Shagga does not comprehend the concept of prostitution, but Timett does. Shagga wants the woman for sex as if she's some prize, while Timett recognizes the woman needs to earn a living. That's why Tyrion trusts Timett to escort her out without raping her over Shagga.

They don't know she's a prostitute though, or an abused victim (which likely the case, because Pycelle has a serving girl he can abuse, and he seems to like touching naked girls - that's how he investigated Sansa's case of shock after the death of Ned.)

ETA: They might have considered her being a wife too.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's a difference between someone who puts out the eyes of other people and someone who puts out his own eye.

I'll give you that much.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The sole bad thing we ever hear of him is that he harms someone who tried to cheat him - he choked and tore through the throat of the cheater with his fingers.

He's not so bad.  He is only a murderer.

Gambling is generally regarded as a vice.  It is a purely selfish endeavor provides little if any value to society.  Or maybe it's not all bad, but at least, it is not of such critical importance that we need to hand out licenses to kill to those who have been cheated, or who think they have been cheated.

In the Old Westerns, there were gamblers who would draw weapons when they thought they had been cheated.  These were invariably villains, and tended to be taught the error of their ways in one way or another.

If you should ever kill somebody, don't say "But your honor, he was cheating."  It will not go over well, even today.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But he treats anybody else with basic human respect, including prostitutes.

That's more than we know.  Generally, the clansmen have a bad reputation in KL.  And the single worst thing we hear of them happens to be something Timett did.

[EggBlue]

why doesn't anyone care about Arryns of Gultown ?

@sweetsunray say , sweet Robin , Harry the Heir and half of Vale's nobles die in the tourney . if the rest , including Royce, have the option between the clansman Timmet who might be an Arryn (and through rape at that) and Gultown Arryns , what makes you think they'll choose Timmet ? ! merchants are easier to deal with, and closer to the noble class than clansmen who are seen as savages and Vale's enemies rather than Vale's people. 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

why doesn't anyone care about Arryns of Gultown ?

@sweetsunray say , sweet Robin , Harry the Heir and half of Vale's nobles die in the tourney . if the rest , including Royce, have the option between the clansman Timmet who might be an Arryn (and through rape at that) and Gultown Arryns , what makes you think they'll choose Timmet ? ! merchants are easier to deal with, and closer to the noble class than clansmen who are seen as savages and Vale's enemies rather than Vale's people. 

It is possible that the Arryns of Gulltown may attempt to make another claim as they once did after the death of Jeyne Arryn.

Some of these clans surely are savages, others no more than most wildlings. I'm more inclined to compare Timett's clan with the Thenns. Unlike most other mountain clans, he and his men recognize pyramidal hierarchy and orders. This is why Tyrion ends up relying almost entirely on Timett and his men towards the time they have to prepare for Stannis' expected attack.

We assume rape, but we do not actually know that. These were clansmen who worshipped and sheltered Nettles. It tells us they can adapt. And as Chella shows for her different tribe, clansmen can follow women even in war. And despite Timett's savage killing of the cheater in KL, there are no complaints about him or his men raping anyone in KL. And though they were the first to immediately return to the mountains of the Vale with their plunder after the Battle of the Blackwater, they are also not amongst the clans listed attacking villages or travelers on the Riverlands' side.

Are the mountain clans murderous? Yes, but why? They were driven off their former fertile lands or escaped enslavement, and their sole refuge were the Mountains of the Moon. The Andals made them into enemies and savages. At least the Free Folk chose to explore beyond the Wall during the age of Wall construction after the Long Night when they did not want to be ruled by some petty king.

The Vale somehow needs to resolve this. Just like the Starks once resolved the differences with the mountain clans in the North, and Jon and Stannis resolve the differences with the Free Folk: by recognizing they are people and if they have access to resources they don't have to resort to highway murder. I don't expect Andal houses to see it that way, but several of the First Men houses who knelt and did get to keep their lands will realize this sooner. George did not write the history on how the mountain clans of the Vale became as they are now, to make them the sole people from the Thenns valley until Dorne unworthy of reconsideration.

I'm not sure how exactly this would be resolved by the end of it all, but I do expect George to have the Vale pay dearly for playing chicken so far (because of LF and Lysa mostly) and to have their historical responsibility in stealing land and chasing people into the mountains to starve there for all they cared backfire. It is noteworthy that Timett is surprisingly civilised in comparison to a guy like Shagga, even if that "civilised" is still "savage" in comparison to some who live in a castle, and yet also far more civilised than a guy like Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane from the Westerlands. Just as it is noticeable that George keeps  the entire house and immediate family of Yohn Bronze Royce away from the tourney, even those who are wed to participants of the tourney. Especially considering that his second son was at the Hand's Tourney and earned his rainbow cloak for Renly (before he got killed by Loras). I expect Yohn Bronze Royce of Runestone and his vassal houses (like Tolett) to be the actual House and Vale region of meaningful power that will not be severely impacted by the natural disaster to occur during the tourney. He has his heir Andar Royce (and keeps him away from the tourney) and he has Ysilla, who was wed to Mychel Redfort. Mychel is at the tourney, but not Ysilla. It makes him the "kingmaker" of the Vale most likely. How will he choose? He has several options imo, especially if Ysilla ends up widowed. 

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Harry is not that person . as mentioned above, Harry is basically a Robert 2.0 . even if he does fall for the Stark lady, he'd likely be more than willing to detour in brothels on his way heading towards her. 

if it were up to me , at the end of the series Sansa would end up with someone like Ned Dayne , beginning a new chapter in life after she has come back to Winterfell, reunited with her siblings, and done her part in Stark policy plans. somewhat like Elaena Targaryen .  but as it is up to George , probably the best Sansa can hope for is to have the Hound as her lover . it won't be all that bad , knowing Sandor might just turn out to be a perfect not-knight who has been in rage rehab in the Quiet Isle ! but it's still got a too toxic base for my liking .

Why not Margaery?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I took GRRM not mentioning working on Sansa’s chapters as a sign that he was able to get through them fairly quickly. Eleven years down the line, I tend to think that the chapters he’s still working on are the ones that are giving him trouble.

I think you might be right. GRRM has mentioned "visiting" Cersei several times over the last few years, and in the latest big update said that he finished a couple of Cersei chapters that were giving him "fits".

[Nevets]

The first thing to remember about the story in the Vale at this point is that it is Sansa's story.  The Vale is important right now because Sansa is there.  It's her finishing school where she learn the art of politics, influence, manipulation, and puts it to use.  Any suggestions of future story needs to advance her story or affect Westeros overall.

I fail to see how the "avalanche" theory advances her story.  Unless she is in charge of the rescue or leads the Vale out of disaster back to prosperity, which I don't see happening, then she's little more than a bystander.  We've had seen enough of that with her.

The Royces being absent is probably due to their differences with Littlefinger.  And Sansa turning to the Royces because they are all that's left isn't especially satisfactory either.  If she's going to turn to Yohn Royce, it needs to be because she feels he is the best choice out of everybody in the Vale.

As for Timmett and the other tribesmen, a rapprochement might be a good idea.  If you want to suggest that Sansa helps bring one about, go for it.  She can follow in her "brother's" footsteps.  But you don't need a mass casualty disaster to facilitate it.

Essentially, with any theory involving the Vale, ask yourself "how does this advance Sansa's story?".

[Gilbert Green]

40 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The first thing to remember about the story in the Vale at this point is that it is Sansa's story.  The Vale is important right now because Sansa is there.  It's her finishing school where she learn the art of politics, influence, manipulation, and puts it to use. 

I was more or less on board until the third sentence.  I really hate the idea of Sansa as a Littlefinger-in-Training.  I don't want her to become a "Player" of "the Game".  You could be right, but I hope you are wrong.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The first thing to remember about the story in the Vale at this point is that it is Sansa's story.  The Vale is important right now because Sansa is there.  It's her finishing school where she learn the art of politics, influence, manipulation, and puts it to use.  Any suggestions of future story needs to advance her story or affect Westeros overall.

I fail to see how the "avalanche" theory advances her story.  Unless she is in charge of the rescue or leads the Vale out of disaster back to prosperity, which I don't see happening, then she's little more than a bystander.  We've had seen enough of that with her.

The Royces being absent is probably due to their differences with Littlefinger.  And Sansa turning to the Royces because they are all that's left isn't especially satisfactory either.  If she's going to turn to Yohn Royce, it needs to be because she feels he is the best choice out of everybody in the Vale.

As for Timmett and the other tribesmen, a rapprochement might be a good idea.  If you want to suggest that Sansa helps bring one about, go for it.  She can follow in her "brother's" footsteps.  But you don't need a mass casualty disaster to facilitate it.

Essentially, with any theory involving the Vale, ask yourself "how does this advance Sansa's story?".

First of all, Sansa has a good knowledge of houses and histories, This certainly would include how House Stark managed to get their mountain clans to become peaceful houses of the region. So, I can certainly see her being a character who advocates the rapprochement. A severe wounding of the Andal houses by losing important members as well as Harry, no more Eyrie and damaged Bloody Gate force the Vale to recognize the mountain clans as an actual threat. They won't negotiate unless the threat is real to them.

Timett knows things that Sansa does not yet, via Tyrion. He was a quiet observant in the Red Keep and King's Landing. I'll bet he knows a lot about Littlefinger, possibly even about his lies about the catspaw dagger. Sansa has no clue yet whatsoever about all of this: that her brother was nearly assassinated by a hired catspaw with a VS dagger, that LF lied it was his but lost in a wager against Tyrion, that this was why her mother arrested Tyrion at all, or that LF used that same dagger against her father. Timett wasn't around anymore when Tyrion realized Joff was behind the assassination attempt, but Tyrion knew LF lied about the dagger and betrayed Ned Stark. We don't know how much Timett knows about this, but I wouldn't be surprised he knows some, if not directly from Tyrion, by often being paired with Bronn in KL, and Bronn was a witness to Tyrion's arrest and Cat's claims about the attempt on Bran's life. Moreover, Timett knows Sansa. Tyrion had Timett escort her to safety from Joff's beatings. Timett and Sandor (apart from Tyrion) are two people with knowledge about LF's betrayals, indirectly and directly. And Sansa needs that info to take LF out herself. And I do believe that she will take out LF in the Vale, simultaneously revealing who she truly is.

Yes, in-world the Royces are not at the tourney because of their differences with LF. But that's not the reason why George decided to keep them away from the tourney. I expect Royce to declare himself for Sansa.