HOTD Musings

[The Bard of Banefort]

“Fire to fire” is kind of a dumb tagline, to be honest. I’m guessing it’s a play on “ashes to ashes,” just with the F&B motif jammed in, but it still doesn’t really make sense.

[The Dragon Demands]

28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

“Fire to fire” is kind of a dumb tagline, to be honest. I’m guessing it’s a play on “ashes to ashes,” just with the F&B motif jammed in, but it still doesn’t really make sense.

"From the fire we came, to the fire we shall return" is actually a thing - the Targaryens burn their dead, etc.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Ta-da!

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I was wrong about one major thing: there’s nothing about Winterfell at all in this trailer, just a shot of snow. No Jace either, sadly. 

Both Baela and Rhaenyra are joining the battle this time, which isn’t too surprising.

Why is Alicent walking around in a white nightgown like she’s Galadriel? 

I’m told the dragon facing off with Syrax is Seasmoke, although I don’t know why.

One complaint: I wish they weren’t obviously trying to mimic Joffrey with Aegon. 

I wonder if the girl with the Bracken sigil is actually Aly Blackwood in disguise? Although it would be nice to diversify the Brackens a bit.

I’m not surprised by how much they’re promoting Aemond, but it is a little weird for there to be so little of Daemon. The stans will not be pleased.

HOTD does many things better than GOT, but one-liners are not one of them. The HOTD trailers aren’t quotable the way that GOT’s were.

[Lord Varys]

On 12/1/2023 at 2:49 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The newest rumor is that Alicent will go to Dragonstone to confront Rhaenyra in the finale. I’m not too surprised, since the showrunners have been insistent that their relationship is at the heart of the show, but it is a bit nonsensical. First from a logistical standpoint (Alicent would be going straight into the enemy’s lair), but also because B&C really should put a definitive end to their friendship.

Read that, too. If that's true there are ways to fly with that, for instance, Alicent not believing Rhaenyra was behind Blood & Cheese personally, and she agreeing that the war cost them too much already. Rhaenyra lost Luke, Alicent/Helaena Jaehaerys, and both of them (in the show) are going to lose Rhaenys at Rook's Rest. That won't be a death anybody is going to cherish. Especially not Baela, who is effectively Rhaenys' foster daughter in the show.

Also, in context, the show had Rhaenyra and Alicent as restoring their friendship when we last saw them. Both of them denouncing the other as a lying bitch after the coup would be the easy way out.

I'd also expect Aegon II really taking charge of this prior to Rook's Rest, pushing aside Otto and his mother to escalate the war with Criston and Aemond.

Aegon's injuries could give Alicent an opening to try negotiations again. Would be quite fun if the late attack of the Triarchy came as a surprise to both sides.

If they want to stay faithful to book development the loss of Jace will be the thing that hardens Rhaenyra's resolve, so one could easily see Oldtown entering the fray with Daeron in the wake of the fall of KL.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Both Baela and Rhaenyra are joining the battle this time, which isn’t too surprising.

They might be both at Rook's Rest. I do imagine Baela will be out for blood after Rhaenys' death.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why is Alicent walking around in a white nightgown like she’s Galadriel?

Could be indicative of Aegon pushing her (and Otto) out of the government.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m told the dragon facing off with Syrax is Seasmoke, although I don’t know why.

They could have Addam being the first dragonseed dragonrider and have his success trigger the search for more. If claims Seasmoke without invitation she would have to check if the guy is loyal to her.

Or Laenor comes back and they have a lot to talk about.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One complaint: I wish they weren’t obviously trying to mimic Joffrey with Aegon. 

Well, Aegon II in the books is pretty much like GoT's Joffrey, so what else could they do?

Do we know who Aegon's walking goons are? The KG comes after. Is one of them Gwayne Hightower?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do we know who Aegon's walking goons are? The KG comes after. Is one of them Gwayne Hightower?

They are a trio  of show-only characters we saw during the exterior shoot: Martin Reyne (Barney Fishwick), Eddard Waters (Tok Stephen) and Leon Estermont (Ralph Davis).

Weirdly enough, the four actors who have been officially revealed back in April (Gayle Rankin as Alys Rivers, Abubakar Salim as Alyn of Hull, Simon Russell Beale as Simon Strong and Freddie Fox as Gwayne Hightower) do not appear in the teaser.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I had thought that Rhaenys' line about there being "nothing so hateful to the gods as war between kin" sounded familiar, then I realized that it was very similar to a trailer line from Brienne saying "there's nothing more hateful than failing to protect the one you love."

Someone deduced that Alicent was speaking to Larys in the trailer based on a quick glimpse of his cane. It is a little odd that Alicent keeps confiding in Larys despite her fear of him. I suppose you could argue that she has no one else to talk to, but that's a bit silly on its own. I can understand why they didn't give Alicent and Rhaenyra other female companions in order to emphasize their relationship, but realistically, they should both have a circle of highborn courtiers close to them. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Question for the class: does knowing the Dance’s ending make you less excited to watch it?

That sounds like a weird question, since you usually know the ending of a story if you’ve read the books, and plenty of tragedies are classics, but something about this story is hitting me differently. I’m wondering if it’s just too nihilistic. Even when I’m re-reading FnB, I tend to stop after Rhaenyra takes the throne and skip ahead a few chapters. As much as I like Viserys II, even he and Aegon surviving doesn’t really feel like a silver lining. Does anyone else have this problem?

[Ran]

Nope.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: does knowing the Dance’s ending make you less excited to watch it?

That sounds like a weird question, since you usually know the ending of a story if you’ve read the books, and plenty of tragedies are classics, but something about this story is hitting me differently. I’m wondering if it’s just too nihilistic. Even when I’m re-reading FnB, I tend to stop after Rhaenyra takes the throne and skip ahead a few chapters. As much as I like Viserys II, even he and Aegon surviving doesn’t really feel like a silver lining. Does anyone else have this problem?

That's one reason why I find the Dance GRRM's least-interesting and least well-written conflict so you're certainly not alone in how you feel regarding the show.

[frenin]

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: does knowing the Dance’s ending make you less excited to watch it?

Yes, especially because it's dull af after awhile-

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yes, especially because it's dull af after awhile-

Yeah, I don’t know what it is, but I’m kind of dreading the rest of the show. It’s not even really because of the characters, it’s just more that. . . there’s no relief. It’s all tragedy from here on out. This is another reason why I prefer the post-Dance era from Daeron I onwards. It’s less apocalyptic and more of an ongoing, somewhat wacky family drama. 

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Question for the class: does knowing the Dance’s ending make you less excited to watch it?

That sounds like a weird question, since you usually know the ending of a story if you’ve read the books, and plenty of tragedies are classics, but something about this story is hitting me differently. I’m wondering if it’s just too nihilistic. Even when I’m re-reading FnB, I tend to stop after Rhaenyra takes the throne and skip ahead a few chapters. As much as I like Viserys II, even he and Aegon surviving doesn’t really feel like a silver lining. Does anyone else have this problem?

It is more kind of pitiful how things end. Cripples and old men and women lying and scheming to save their own skins and/or create an obvious sham peace.

The last climax is the Storming of the Dragonpit, everything afterwards anticlimactic and leading nowhere.

Narratively the Regency account is plotted carefully, but it ends in medias res. The purpose of the story clearly is to show what happens if the dragon sleeps, so to speak. The rats and lions and wolves come out to dance on the table like the mice do when the cats are away (George even gives Alicent such a line earlier).

We see Aegon III 'awaken' in the end, but he barely opens his eye.

It is clear that there is a story told about the ultimate punishment of Unwin Peake and how Aegon and Viserys deal with the Harrenhal problem, the fake Daerons, etc. But without that, the book is lacking a proper conclusion.

[$erPounce]

I must say that I also struggled with Fire & Blood. The book is not particularly memorable or remarkable, and is not at all on the level of ASOIAF, Dunk & Egg, Fevre Dream and A Song for Lya.

George traditionally works from the perspective of the POV characters and then finds out for himself what is the most effective course to take with the character. How George works with his characters is his greatest strength as a writer. But unlike his previous books, Fire & Blood has a very different approach, which in my opinion exposes George's own flaws (even if he tries to hide it by writing it as a fake history book in which the sources used are often dubious).

With Fire & Blood, it is also apparent once again that George is a much better gardener than an architect. When writing that book, George probably found that a fair number of plot points were already set in stone by what was previously described in the ASOIAF books and he had to work around that. He was clearly struggling with that, and you can tell by some of the illogical to silly things that happen in the Fire & Blood.

I also think George leans a little too heavily on the “tragedy porn” with the Dance, of which one example is the death of Jaehaera. This was absolutely unnecessary, but it seems George wanted to root out the Greens.
 

Edited December 6, 2023 by $erPounce

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

I must say that I also struggled with Fire & Blood. The book is not particularly memorable or remarkable, and is not at all on the level of ASOIAF, Dunk & Egg, Fevre Dream and A Song for Lya.

George traditionally works from the perspective of the POV characters and then finds out for himself what is the most effective course to take with the character. How George works with his characters is his greatest strength as a writer. But unlike his previous books, Fire & Blood has a very different approach, which in my opinion exposes George's own flaws (even if he tries to hide it by writing it as a fake history book in which the sources used are often dubious).

The biggest flaw of the book as a whole is that it is unbalanced and effectively glosses over Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters and their era as well as the later reign of Jaehaerys I (especially the youth of his grandchildren) and that of Viserys I.

We can say now that we know some facts about Rhaenyra and Daemon, etc. ... but we cannot say we know them as people. Unlike, say, Queen Rhaena or young Alysanne who are fleshed out much better.

8 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

I also think George leans a little too heavily on the “tragedy porn” with the Dance, of which one example is the death of Jaehaera. This was absolutely unnecessary, but it seems George wanted to root out the Greens.

I think this is supposed to be cruel irony as the man behind the murder seems to be Unwin Peake, described as a fervent Green. It is rather disgusting to have him kill Aegon II's last surviving son so he can marry his own daughter to Rhaenyra's (last surviving) son.

Thinking about season 2:

If Alicent-Rhaenyra try to make another peace, there are some interesting ways how this could go and fail:

- We know the Triarchy joins the fighting rather late in reaction to Otto's earlier letters. Could be that Alicent doesn't know they are coming when she talks to Rhaenyra. After Rook's Rest, the true power at the Green court might revert back to Alicent before and/or while Aemond is made Prince Regent.

- For Alicent, Aegon being crippled and the death of Rhaenys might be huge blows. In the show she seems to respect Rhaenys - even more so, after she spared their lives. They suffered huge blows before e

- We can expect that Alicent will not be in favor of the more aggressive tactics and campaigns Aegon II and Criston Cole might be pushing for in the aftermath of Blood and Cheese. Once Aegon II is out of the picture, cooler heads could have a chance for a time.

- Of course Alicent would have to know or believe that Rhaenyra did not authorize Blood and Cheese (or at least not want to target Helaena/Jaehaerys).

- Prior to the Gullet we could have a scenario where Alicent intends to push Aegon to abdicate in favor of Rhaenyra so they could create a peace, especially if Rhaenyra were to talk about prophecy shenanigans during their meeting. This could also help explain why Otto and Alicent remain in KL while Larys only spirits away Aegon and his children. If it were all-out war for Alicent at that point then she should have fled with her son. In the show Larys might abandon Alicent after they fell out for some reason, stealing Aegon and the children from her.

- For Rhaenyra, the loss of Jace in the Gullet would harden her resolve even more, as it does in the book, it being the reason why she ends up executing Otto - because he arranged the attack which killed her eldest son. That, in turn, would be why relations between Alicent and Rhaenyra get worse in season 3.

If Daeron and Oldtown don't show up in season 2 one imagines the show's take on things is to go with a slowly escalating war which portrays things that happen simultaneously in the book successively in the show. That would roughly mean they start with Crownlands and Riverlands stuff, with the Westermen eventually joining the fray in the Riverlands, but possibly only after Aemond becomes Prince Regent. Oldtown might stay aloof of things until the fall of KL and the execution of Otto Hightower. The Ironborn and Northmen might only become really embroiled in the war after the Westermen invading the Riverlands increases the fighting there.

That they are apparently building up things slowly seem to indicate leaks like Oscar Tully supposedly telling Daemon Riverrun has to stay neutral while old Lord Grover yet clings to life - that would be a classical build-up scene with the rewards only coming in season 3 or 4.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

They could have Addam being the first dragonseed dragonrider and have his success trigger the search for more. If claims Seasmoke without invitation she would have to check if the guy is loyal to her.

Or Laenor comes back, and they have a lot to talk about.

Addam can't claim Seasmoke as long as Laenor is alive. That's a point that has been well-established in the show. If they did that, the show would be making itself look stupid for breaking its own continuity (triggering a lot of chaos and commotion from viewers) AND for killing Laenor offscreen. 

Or maybe it's just an original made-for-TV subplot that:

• makes the Blacks realize that finding new dragonriders is not just essential to the war effort but for the security of Dragonstone (i.e., too many wild, riderless dragons on Dragonstone moving about is a pretty serious security concern)
• foreshadows the upcoming "what happened to the Grey Ghost?" mystery

 

Laenor coming back on the other hand...that is interesting. I'd be okay with it if Laenor shows back up in time for the conquest of King's Landing

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Laenor coming back on the other hand...that is interesting. I'd be okay with it if Laenor shows back up in time for the conquest of King's Landing

From what leaks say regarding the Syrax/Seasmoke confrontation it will be Addam. But I imagine Laenor's death will either be confirmed by way of his dragon accepting a new rider ... or by way of a letter from or the return of Qarl Correy. The guy liked to fight, so it would make sense for him to offer his sword to Rhaenyra and the Velaryons.

If Laenor is dead it might make sense that he died in fights against the Triarchy.

[The Bard of Banefort]

They’ll solve the dragonrider bond by never explaining it. Even when Joffrey dies, it may just be that he was too young to tame Syrax and dies in the attempt.

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They’ll solve the dragonrider bond by never explaining it

Kinda like Martin does?

We have that throawau line from Rhaenyra talking about how Joffrey did not know enough about the bonds of the dragons and then nothing.