The Most Laughable and Worst ASOIAF Theories and Takes

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s a ridiculous argument. I’m obviously not saying he should have been yelling at everyone that ice zombies are going to destroy them all at some point in the future b/c he dreamt it. But he’s done nothing that someone w/ this type of knowledge would have done. Not. A. Thing. 
Also, what you propose are “seeds” aren’t really. Baelor whatever, Rhaegar whatever, there are no clear hints of Aegon I having anything to do w/ any of that.
 

There are hints that Rhaegar may have had prophetic dreams but there is nothing that links to Aegon I having prophetic dreams, beyond the possibility for any Targaryen to have them, and there is nothing that links to Aegon foreseeing some magical threat coming. That idea is at odds with what we see him do, his character etc.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There are hints that Rhaegar may have had prophetic dreams but there is nothing that links to Aegon I having prophetic dreams, beyond the possibility for any Targaryen to have them, and there is nothing that links to Aegon foreseeing some magical threat coming. That idea is at odds with what we see him do, his character etc.

That’s exactly it. I was referring to that type of thing when I said, ‘Rhaegar whatever’. We know many Targs had prophetic dreams, but many more did not (as far as we’ve been told). So if the idea is that any Targ has them, then Martin did a poor job w/ that - specifically b/c we know many did not. Also, in everything we’ve learned about Aegon I, the Conquest, etc, there’s absolutely nothing linking him to prophetic dreams and even less to some knowledge about the Others and an impending apocalypse. Could it become a thing in a future book? Sure, but it will be a laughable retcon. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[csuszka1948]

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That sounds like something the Targaryens would make up later as propaganda. If pre-unification Westeros was really that bad, I would expect to see Aegon I getting more support in the first place, and people at the time saying how bad it was.

Both TWOIAF (which cannot be Targaryen propaganda) and Fire'&Blood mentions it and the much reduced number of the Night's Watch and population growth is further evidence. The high lords have also recognised it by the end of the Dance of Dragons, that's why they didn't break up.

It was pretty bad for the smallfolk, just they don't have a voice. The high lords who wanted to keep their Kingly titles called their armies against Aegon.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure, but it will be a laughable retcon. 

Would probably sour the experience for be to be honest. Inserting that now, with no sort of hint, would be like those comic book retcons...

[Alester Florent]

14 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Reminds me of some people who justify invasions and colonization because 'technology improved' or 'blood sacrifice became illegal'. This could have been achieved without invading/conquering countries or needlessly killing or forcefully converting people. 

The same thing occurred to me yesterday. The argument put forward that the enlightened Targs fixed up Westeros andthe natives had barbaric customs, and therefore they were in the right, is pretty much exactly the same argument you used to hear a lot more frequently (and still do occasionally) as purported justification for European colonialism.

That there were some reforms following the conquest that ameliorated the conditions of some people does not in itself justify the conquest, nor can we assume that the intention to carry out those reforms was the actual reason for the conquest. Especially when you bear in mind that on the "feminist" argument many of the reforms he's getting credited with were actually the work of his grandchildren.

[csuszka1948]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s a ridiculous argument. I’m obviously not saying he should have been yelling at everyone that ice zombies are going to destroy them all at some point in the future b/c he dreamt it. But he’s done nothing that someone w/ this type of knowledge would have done. Not. A. Thing. 

He unified the continent and during the years put a lot of effort into making it legitimate.

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, what you propose are “seeds” aren’t really. Baelor whatever, Rhaegar whatever, there are no clear hints of Aegon I having anything to do w/ any of that.
 

Why would there, does GRRM want to give the mystery away? The currently living people don't know about Aegon and the chronicles describe him as a was a reserved and introspective person. 

There are clear hints to many mysteries ('song of ice and fire', scrolls destroyed by Baelor and found by Aerys I and Rhaegar, 'three heads of the dragon', three-headed dragon sigil mystery, Aegon marrying both his sisters which was highly unusual, Marwyn finding Daenys's dreams and knowing about the prophecy), and Aegon's dream is the relevation that answers them.

Edited August 20, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

11 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The same thing occurred to me yesterday. The argument put forward that the enlightened Targs fixed up Westeros andthe natives had barbaric customs, and therefore they were in the right, is pretty much exactly the same argument you used to hear a lot more frequently (and still do occasionally) as purported justification for European colonialism.

Well, it can be hardly called colonialism, when the Targaryens didn't have a 'home country' to which they took away the resources of the 'colonies'. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

when the Targaryens didn't have a 'home country

Dragonstone?

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Well, it can be hardly called colonialism, when the Targaryens didn't have a 'home country' to which they took away the resources of the 'colonies'. 

They're not doing exactly the same thing, although colonialism took a number of different forms of which "asset-stripping the region and carting it home" was only one. But the arguments is essentially the same: we conquered these savages for their own good.

[csuszka1948]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Dragonstone?

Did they use the resources they siphoned away from the 'colonies' to 'make Dragonstone great again'?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

23 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

No, you tell me when Aegon unleashed his dragons against civilians before the First Dornish War, find the informations by yourself

I’m sure the population of Harrenhal was all Ironborn, no slaves or innocents at all lol

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Did they use the resources they siphoned away from the 'colonies' to 'make Dragonstone great again'?

I imagine that money made from Westeros would go towards repairing/expanding Dragonstone if need be.

The Targaryens were clearly getting wealth and labour out of Westeros.

Edit: Not sure what there is to laugh at here because it's true. Massive projects such as the Red Keep or Great Sept of Baelor would not have been possible for the Targaryens otherwise.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sifth]

Bran being trapped in a time loop is a theory I really hate. I feel like it would ruin the series if true, since it would make many of the events of the series seem less important, since Bran could just rest the timeline. 
 

The Three Eyed Crow being future Bran is equally dumb. We have a line of text in Bran III of ADWD, that Blood Raven is a crow in Bran’s dreams, when he’s trading him.

Edited August 20, 2023 by sifth

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

He unified the continent and during the years put a lot of effort into making it legitimate.

And that has absolutely nothing to do w/ preparing for an ice zombie apocalypse, so not sure what’s the point you didn’t make here.

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Why would there, does GRRM want to give the mystery away? The currently living people don't know about Aegon and the chronicles describe him as a was a reserved and introspective person. 
 

Then he shouldn’t have given us so many clues and hints to so many other mysteries. He should have done like bad writers everywhere and just sprung shockers left and right, like in the abomination. Only that’s not his style. He doesn’t want to spell things out from the get-go, but he leaves hints for the readers. And for the millionth time, there are none in the books pointing to Aegon I having had a prophetic dream about the threat from the far north. 

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

There are clear hints to many mysteries ('song of ice and fire', scrolls destroyed by Baelor and found by Aerys I and Rhaegar, 'three heads of the dragon', three-headed dragon sigil mystery, Aegon marrying both his sisters which was highly unusual, Marwyn finding Daenys's dreams and knowing about the prophecy), and Aegon's dream is the relevation that answers them.

And for the millionth and one time, whatever we get pertaining to other Targs having had prophetic dreams or suspecting things or anything else is not connected to Aegon I in the books we have read so far. Could something like this be added to a future book? Sure. And it will be a retcon. 

[Craving Peaches]

A minority of Targaryens having prophetic dreams does not mean Aegon I had prophetic dreams.

Prophetic dreams does not mean those dreams were about the Others.

[SeanF]

Aegon is more like Alfred the Great, Athelstan, or Bismarck, than he is like a colonial ruler.

He becomes top dog, but no part of the Seven Kingdoms is made subject to any other.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

A minority of Targaryens having prophetic dreams does not mean Aegon I had prophetic dreams.

Prophetic dreams does not mean those dreams were about the Others.

Agree that prophetic dreams were not necessarily about the Others.

George does ramp up the number of dragon dreams at least for one generation in aFfC: he admits that all his brothers had dragon dreams and all died for it

Quote

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ." (aFfC, Samwell III)

Aerion Brightflame drank a cup of wildfire because of them

Daeron drank as medicine against them, hence Daeron the Drunked. Aemon used to be his brother's maester. Allegedly he died of the pox from a whore, but this suggest perhaps something else.

Aegon V is confirmed to have been a dragon dreamer by Aemon here. He died at Summerhal in a fire after he attempted to hatch dragon eggs with wildfire.

And Aemon has them. He gives us a glimpse of that dream: red comet, shadows of dragons on the snow, hearing their wings and feeling their breath.

So, in one generation we have 4/4 sons who had dragon dreams. We don't know about his two sisters yet. Might have skipped generations, sure. But Aemon's confession suggests the possibility that it was far more prevalent than most Targs let on: at least 4/6 of siblings confirmed, that's 2/3.

Edited August 20, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Aegon is more like Alfred the Great, Athelstan, or Bismarck, than he is like a colonial ruler.

He becomes top dog, but no part of the Seven Kingdoms is made subject to any other.

I think the Bismarck comparison is a bit shaky. Bismarck was not the top dog, the Emperor was, and arguably, parts of Germany were made subject to others because formerly independent states were annexed by Prussia. To a certain extent, all German states were made subject to Prussia.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

George does ramp up the number of dragon dreams at least for one generation in aFfC: he admits that all his brothers had dragon dreams and all died for it

But that’s Aegon V not I, and as far as I recall this case is more an exception rather than the rule given the actual info we are given. As far as I can tell, this could be a hint that a Targ/Dayne mix increases the chances of the offspring having prophetic dreams. 
 

Again, given how it’s been established that some Targs do have these dreams, I would have been fine w/ Aegon having had such a dream that gave him knowledge about the Others. But there’s absolutely nothing in the text pointing to that. Not even a throwaway line like, “it is said Aegon I had dreams that troubled him” in the middle of a paragraph. But there is nothing, and if it becomes a thing in the books it will be a retcon. 

[Willam Stark]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the Bismarck comparison is a bit shaky. Bismarck was not the top dog, the Emperor was, and arguably, parts of Germany were made subject to others because formerly independent states were annexed by Prussia. To a certain extent, all German states were made subject to Prussia.

Since Westeros is inspired by medieval England, then the best point of comparison is simply William the Conqueror.