The Most Laughable and Worst ASOIAF Theories and Takes

[csuszka1948]

 

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And for the millionth and one time, whatever we get pertaining to other Targs having had prophetic dreams or suspecting things or anything else is not connected to Aegon I in the books we have read so far. Could something like this be added to a future book? Sure. And it will be a retcon. 

 

No, it's not a retcon, it's a REVEAL.

It reveals where the "three heads of the dragon" comes from, namely from Aegon's dream. The fact that Aegon introduced the 3-headed dragon as a sigil already points in his direction.

It reveals what the "song of ice and fire" is, namely Aegon's dream.

What would be the proper explanation for those mysteries that you wouldn't call a "retcon"? Nobody in the books says that Aegon wanted to conquer Westeros because he was a megalomaniac, he seems to be a highly motivated introvert whose motives were mysterious.

 

[csuszka1948]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But there’s absolutely nothing in the text pointing to that. Not even a throwaway line like, “it is said Aegon I had dreams that troubled him” in the middle of a paragraph. 

 

 

 

How would we get such a throwaway line when it's a point that the origin of many of these scrolls and prophecies probably have been lost to time, just like the Starks have probably forgotten what "winter is coming" really means? 

Edited August 20, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Willam Stark]

3 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, it's not a retcon, it's a REVEAL.

It reveals where the "three heads of the dragon" comes from, namely from Aegon's dream. The fact that Aegon introduced the 3-headed dragon as a sigil already points in his direction.

It reveals what the "song of ice and fire" is, namely Aegon's dream.

What would be the proper explanation for those mysteries that you wouldn't call a "retcon"? Nobody in the books says that Aegon wanted to conquer Westeros because he was a megalomaniac, he seems to be a highly motivated introvert whose motives were mysterious.

 

It's rather strange that Aegon didn't go and visit the Wall like his granddaughter did after him. If he'd seen the threat of the Others coming from the North, that's what he would have done. That's why I don't think he saw the Others clearly, just a three-headed dragon fighting an army. Prophetic dreams are more symbolic than anything else in ASOIAF, we can't expect a detailed vision of the future with those dreams.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that’s Aegon V not I, and as far as I recall this case is more an exception rather than the rule given the actual info we are given. As far as I can tell, this could be a hint that a Targ/Dayne mix increases the chances of the offspring having prophetic dreams. 
 

Again, given how it’s been established that some Targs do have these dreams, I would have been fine w/ Aegon having had such a dream that gave him knowledge about the Others. But there’s absolutely nothing in the text pointing to that. Not even a throwaway line like, “it is said Aegon I had dreams that troubled him” in the middle of a paragraph. But there is nothing, and if it becomes a thing in the books it will be a retcon. 

Agree that's Aegon V and not I. Might be because of Daynes. And Aemon speaks of only one dream he has himself, whereas his brother Daeron seemed to be a prolific dreamer, including dreaming about Dunk and the death of Prince Baelor during the trial of the seven at the Ashford Tourney. In any case, it's not just about Aegon V, but 2 out of 3 at the very least in one generation who were dreamers. If this is a Targ percentage per generation, we might be looking at Aegon I and one of his sisters being dreamers.

Agreed that there's no such mention of dreams in relation to Aegon I in Fire and Blood.

There are a few things that can be regarded as set-ups to introduce a dream later on

• the painted table. It does not outright prove dreams, just that Aegon had prepared himself for an opportunity and conquer plans well before Argilac involved him in political turmoil in Westeros. And Aegon having a stroke just as he is showing that table to his grandchildren. It's as if talking about the table and the conquest triggered something in Aegon's brain to just blow. 
• the colors of the three dragons of the conquering trio: black-red for Balerion, green Vhagar and silver Meraxes. These colors almost completely match with Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion (who's more cream with gold). But if Viserion becomes an ice dragon, he'd turn a frosty silver. Given the introduction of dreamers dreaming of either physical dragons or themselves as dragons, including the description of maester Aemon's dream, it plants the seed for me for a dream of Dany's three dragons. Following that it becomes imo suspect that Visenya keeps two children as hostages at Dragonstone, which implicitly means she keeps them out of the clutches of Maegor. During Maegor's rule we have him on Balerion, and Visenya backs his rule on Vhagar. The children that Visenya keeps as "wards" are Jaehaerys with bronze Vermithor and Alysanne with silverwing. And then later in life, Alysanne particularly wants to visit the Wall and fly across the Wall with Silverwing and is disturbed when Silverwing does not. So, in case there was a dream about a black-red, green and silver dragon (ice dragoned viserion) in the snow, then Alysanne might have believed that Silverwing was the third dragon after Meraxes had died, but she would only have known that from Visenya imo. So, Silverwing not flying across would indeed greatly disturb Alysanne a lot.

But it requires a lot of speculation on my part, admittedly.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agree that's Aegon V and not I. Might be because of Daynes. And Aemon speaks of only one dream he has himself, whereas his brother Daeron seemed to be a prolific dreamer, including dreaming about Dunk and the death of Prince Baelor during the trial of the seven at the Ashford Tourney. In any case, it's not just about Aegon V, but 2 out of 3 at the very least in one generation who were dreamers. If this is a Targ percentage per generation, we might be looking at Aegon I and one of his sisters being dreamers.

Agreed that there's no such mention of dreams in relation to Aegon I in Fire and Blood.

There are a few things that can be regarded as set-ups to introduce a dream later on

• the painted table. It does not outright prove dreams, just that Aegon had prepared himself for an opportunity and conquer plans well before Argilac involved him in political turmoil in Westeros. And Aegon having a stroke just as he is showing that table to his grandchildren. It's as if talking about the table and the conquest triggered something in Aegon's brain to just blow. 
• the colors of the three dragons of the conquering trio: black-red for Balerion, green Vhagar and silver Meraxes. These colors almost completely match with Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion (who's more cream with gold). But if Viserion becomes an ice dragon, he'd turn a frosty silver. Given the introduction of dreamers dreaming of either physical dragons or themselves as dragons, including the description of maester Aemon's dream, it plants the seed for me for a dream of Dany's three dragons. Following that it becomes imo suspect that Visenya keeps two children as hostages at Dragonstone, which implicitly means she keeps them out of the clutches of Maegor. During Maegor's rule we have him on Balerion, and Visenya backs his rule on Vhagar. The children that Visenya keeps as "wards" are Jaehaerys with bronze Vermithor and Alysanne with silverwing. And then later in life, Alysanne particularly wants to visit the Wall and fly across the Wall with Silverwing and is disturbed when Silverwing does not. So, in case there was a dream about a black-red, green and silver dragon (ice dragoned viserion) in the snow, then Alysanne might have believed that Silverwing was the third dragon after Meraxes had died, but she would only have known that from Visenya imo. So, Silverwing not flying across would indeed greatly disturb Alysanne a lot.

But it requires a lot of speculation on my part, admittedly.

I don’t dispute anything you said, nor do I have a problem w/ any of it. That said, none of the above is a hint or clue that Aegon had prophetic dreams or any type of knowledge about the Others IMO. And that’s all I’ve been saying all along: there are no hints therefore if it becomes a thing it will be a retcon.
Given Martin’s style and richness of details etc, we can come up w/ any number of things that are not meant to be specific hints and turn them into something that wasn’t meant to have whatever meaning we assign to it. Maybe that’s part of the reason why we have so many outlandish theories floating around.
 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t dispute anything you said, nor do I have a problem w/ any of it. That said, none of the above is a hint or clue that Aegon had prophetic dreams or any type of knowledge about the Others IMO. And that’s all I’ve been saying all along: there are no hints therefore if it becomes a thing it will be a retcon.
Given Martin’s style and richness of details etc, we can come up w/ any number of things that are not meant to be specific hints and turn them into something that wasn’t meant to have whatever meaning we assign to it. Maybe that’s part of the reason why we have so many outlandish theories floating around.
 

Agreed.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

• the colors of the three dragons of the conquering trio: black-red for Balerion, green Vhagar and silver Meraxes. These colors almost completely match with Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion (who's more cream with gold). But if Viserion becomes an ice dragon, he'd turn a frosty silver. Given the introduction of dreamers dreaming of either physical dragons or themselves as dragons, including the description of maester Aemon's dream, it plants the seed for me for a dream of Dany's three dragons. Following that it becomes imo suspect that Visenya keeps two children as hostages at Dragonstone, which implicitly means she keeps them out of the clutches of Maegor. During Maegor's rule we have him on Balerion, and Visenya backs his rule on Vhagar. The children that Visenya keeps as "wards" are Jaehaerys with bronze Vermithor and Alysanne with silverwing. And then later in life, Alysanne particularly wants to visit the Wall and fly across the Wall with Silverwing and is disturbed when Silverwing does not. So, in case there was a dream about a black-red, green and silver dragon (ice dragoned viserion) in the snow, then Alysanne might have believed that Silverwing was the third dragon after Meraxes had died, but she would only have known that from Visenya imo. So, Silverwing not flying across would indeed greatly disturb Alysanne a lot.

But it requires a lot of speculation on my part, admittedly.

I know where the idea of ice-dragon-Viserion comes from, and I think that the fate of Dany's dragons was handled, Viserion in particular, was one of the dumbest elements of an increasingly dumbed-down story. I don't recall anything from the books that hints that this will be the fate of any of Dany's dragons or Viserion in particular.

I note that "ice dragons" as a theory has been around for yonks, but the general presumption was that there was an existing ice dragon buried somewhere which would be awakened, rather than that one of Dany's dragons would be turned.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, it's not a retcon, it's a REVEAL.

No, it is/would/will be a retcon. And I’m sorry, but I believe I have explained clearly why I think so and really don’t feel like repeating everything again. We just have different opinions about this, and that’s fine. 

[SaffronLady]

A search of Ice and Fire shows the only thing A1gon canonically dreamed of was uniting Westeros from the Wall to Dorne. No magic ice demons and ice zombies.

Besides, dreams are not in and of themselves songs, though "THE song of ice and fire" being a composition by Rhaenys about her brother's dream could work. Rhaenys loving music is canon.

[SeanF]

I’m just reading Pax, by Tom Holland. The most terrifying thing about the Romans was the way that, once committed to a war, they never gave up.  If total extermination of the enemy was what was required to win, then total extermination would be carried out.

That is how a Roman commander would have conducted the war in Dorne.  The death of Rhaenys, after the enemy had supposedly submitted, would place the Dornish beyond the laws of Gods and Men (in Roman eyes), and justify the massacre of every man, woman, and child.  Mass crucifixion of Dornish “rebels” (including children) would be considered legitimate.

Grim as the war was, it could have been so much worse.

Edited August 21, 2023 by SeanF

[KingAerys_II]

8 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

A search of Ice and Fire shows the only thing A1gon canonically dreamed of was uniting Westeros from the Wall to Dorne. No magic ice demons and ice zombies.

Besides, dreams are not in and of themselves songs, though "THE song of ice and fire" being a composition by Rhaenys about her brother's dream could work. Rhaenys loving music is canon.

Daenerys saw Rhaegar talking about "A Song of Ice and Fire", maybe he composed it from the content of the scrolls, or he only reported the title of the song composed by the Queen

[KingAerys_II]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it is/would/will be a retcon. And I’m sorry, but I believe I have explained clearly why I think so and really don’t feel like repeating everything again. We just have different opinions about this, and that’s fine. 

With all the respect I consider the statements of the author more reliable than your opinions, that's why I consider the assumptions on Aegon dream to be true

[Tyrosh Lannister]

The popular theory that the faceless men nuked hardhome as a test before destroying valyria....

This goes against the religion of the faceless men. Also, they didn't need to nuke valyria as they simply most likely had to kill the fire mages keeping the lava/volcanoes in check.

 

Hardhome was destroyed in a Tunguska like event or a meteor strike or a geothermal event. The north and beyond the wall have hot springs. The screams people say coming from the caves are most likely superheated gasses and water being blasted through the caves. Hot gas, water , fire and magma blasted from the caves into the town vaporising it. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Hardhome was destroyed in a Tunguska like event or a meteor strike or a geothermal event.

The issue is then, why did no one spot the meteor? They have telescopes. Also why wasn't there a crater?

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue is then, why did no one spot the meteor? They have telescopes. Also why wasn't there a crater?

Some useful descriptions of the Hardhome event, according to A search of Ice and Fire:

Quote

Hardhome was once the only settlement approaching a town in the lands beyond the Wall, sheltered on Storrold's Point and commanding a deepwater harbor. But six hundred years ago, it was burned and its people destroyed, though the Watch cannot say for a certainty what happened. Some say that cannibals from Skagos fell on them, others that slavers from across the narrow sea were at fault. The strangest stories, from a ship of the Watch sent to investigate, tell of hideous screams echoing down from the cliffs above Hardhome, where no living man or woman could be found.

A most fascinating account of Hardhome can be found in Maester Wyllis's Hardhome: An Account of Three Years Spent Beyond-the-Wall among Savages, Raiders, and Woodswitches. Wyllis journeyed to Hardhome on a Pentoshi trader and established himself there as a healer and counselor so that he might write of their customs. He was given the protection of Gorm the Wolf—a chieftain who shared control of Hardhome with three other chiefs. When Gorm was murdered in a drunken brawl, however, Wyllis found himself in mortal danger and made his way back to Oldtown. There he set down his account, only to vanish the year after the illuminations were done. It was said in the Citadel that he was last seen at the docks, looking for a ship that would take him to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.

Quote

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

So probably a geothermal event, because nothing here mentions falling stars or craters.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SaffronLady said:

Some useful descriptions of the Hardhome event, according to A search of Ice and Fire:

So probably a geothermal event, because nothing here mentions falling stars or craters.

There was also a theory that it was a nuclear explosion but...

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

There was also a theory that it was a nuclear explosion but...

What

Gatling guns already seem quite out of place. Nukes ...

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

What

It was because whatever happened was described as being like the sun rising in the North or something.

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Gatling guns already seem quite out of place.

Where are these supposed to be?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

The popular theory that the faceless men nuked hardhome as a test before destroying valyria....

This goes against the religion of the faceless men. Also, they didn't need to nuke valyria as they simply most likely had to kill the fire mages keeping the lava/volcanoes in check.

 

Hardhome was destroyed in a Tunguska like event or a meteor strike or a geothermal event. The north and beyond the wall have hot springs. The screams people say coming from the caves are most likely superheated gasses and water being blasted through the caves. Hot gas, water , fire and magma blasted from the caves into the town vaporising it. 

I think Hardhome was invaded/investigated by the Valyrians. They were thrown back by Skinchangers and/or the Others

[Tyrosh Lannister]

4 hours ago, Darrow of Lykos said:

I think Hardhome was invaded/investigated by the Valyrians. They were thrown back by Skinchangers and/or the Others

The Valyrias could have destroyed the city with their dragons thinking it was Braavos . But someone would have spotted and reported the dragons ?