International Events Next-

[Fez]

2 hours ago, Lord of Oop North said:

Terrible.

I imagine the next showdown will be the Supreme Court striking down the legislation?

I would assume so. That's what the opposition lawmakers seem to think will happen (and they've asked that protestors don't do anything too dramatic in the meantime). But I dunno what happens after that if it does get struck down.

[Zorral]

 I dunno. ????

Sánchez is convinced that he will be able to govern but for now he lets Feijóo try and fail
The president rules out repeating elections before his Executive — “democracy will find the formula for governability” — and celebrates the result as a victory: “They gave us up for dead and here we are”

https://elpais.com/espana/elecciones-generales/2023-07-24/sanchez-descarta-la-repeticion-de-elecciones-la-democracia-encontrara-la-formula-de-la-gobernabilidad.

Vox party’s hardline attitudes appear to have turned off Spanish voters
Ashifa Kassam in Madrid
Party has been relegated to near-irrelevance as Spain bucks European trend of shift towards far right
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/24/vox-partys-hardline-attitudes-appear-to-have-turned-off-spanish-voters

[Mentat]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

 I dunno. ????

Nobody does, though I think Sánchez is being pretty cavalier about his chances. He's been able to take the wind out of the pro-independence parties' sails simply through being a decent President of Spain and kicking the ball forwards constantly. This has to come to an end, though. The Catalan nationalist party ERC has seen a steep decline in its votes which has to be a result of them trading valuable votes in the Spanish Congress for endless talks of little value. Junts are far more hardcore and will probably not play ball. If Sánchez manages to get them on board, it will be an incredible act of political sleight-of-hand. A Feijoo government also seems next to impossible, so more elections come early December seem the most likely option right now.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

39 minutes ago, JGP said:

Look at you, all growing up and shit.

Never got the impression you were down with the Israeli State's colonial bullshit, but the direction of your compass on this has moved some over the last few years. 

Idk if it's changed much. I've always said a three state solution is best. Give Gaza to Israel, make Jerusalem something like the Vatican, and the West Bank should be the new Palestinian state with Israel paying Jordan for additional land if need be and also pay for most of the costs of relocation with the UN stepping in and helping a bit. To me that seems like the best solution. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Ser Reptitious]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if it's changed much. I've always said a three state solution is best. Give Gaza to Israel, make Jerusalem something like the Vatican, and the West Bank should be the new Palestinian state with Israel paying Jordan for additional land if need be and also pay for most of the costs of relocation with the UN stepping in and helping a bit. To me that seems like the best solution. 

I could possibly see the other two, but how on earth would the bolded work, especially now? You'd have over 1 million inhabitants of the Gaza strip that would, to put it very mildly, not exactly be thrilled to be part of Israel, nor would the rest of Israel (aside from perhaps the Arab population?) be very happy to welcome them as voting citizens. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Mentat said:

Nobody does, though I think Sánchez is being pretty cavalier about his chances.

Many seem surprised, relieved, that it didn't turn out as badly as predicted even 48 hours ago.  Is that so?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

I could possibly see the other two, but how on earth would the bolded work, especially now? You'd have over 1 million inhabitants of the Gaza strip that would, to put it very mildly, not exactly be thrilled to be part of Israel, nor would the rest of Israel (aside from perhaps the Arab population?) be very happy to welcome them as voting citizens. 

The tradeoff in my eyes would be they'd get to claim the illegal settlements in the WB and a relocation plan would be put in place. Gaza is in bad shape and the Palestinians are going to struggle to rebuild it. The WB offers ready made homes. 

I know some want a state that includes both pieces of land, but it would instantly create so many problems, especially if you believe in the idea of some magical highway between the two. This idea while not perfect at least creates a relative solution.

The reason why this issue hasn't been resolved is because both sides have put people in charge that won't accept a compromise. Everyone needs to agree that they're not getting everything they want. However both sides believe they should have the entire country as is and everyone one around them kinda hates both of them so they're not going to help much either. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Mentat]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Many seem surprised, relieved, that it didn't turn out as badly as predicted even 48 hours ago.  Is that so?

I certainly am, but it's not all good news. Other than PSOE, which had marginal gains, the left performed poorly. While they managed to avoid a debacle, the current situation is a stalemate at best, and will likely lead to a new election in a few months' time. How that turns out is anyone's guess. That said, you're right that the forecasts were so dire this feels very much like a reprieve.

[Zorral]

13 minutes ago, Mentat said:

the forecasts were so dire this feels very much like a reprieve

We feel that way, for sure.

 

[Lord of Oop North]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

I would assume so. That's what the opposition lawmakers seem to think will happen (and they've asked that protestors don't do anything too dramatic in the meantime). But I dunno what happens after that if it does get struck down.

Sounds like bad news, hard to imagine Bibi standing down after what has happened over the last few months.

 

 

[Ser Reptitious]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The tradeoff in my eyes would be they'd get to claim the illegal settlements in the WB and a relocation plan would be put in place. Gaza is in bad shape and the Palestinians are going to struggle to rebuild it. The WB offers ready made homes. 

I know some want a state that includes both pieces of land, but it would instantly create so many problems, especially if you believe in the idea of some magical highway between the two. This idea while not perfect at least creates a relative solution.

The reason why this issue hasn't been resolved is because both sides have put people in charge that won't accept a compromise. Everyone needs to agree that they're not getting everything they want. However both sides believe they should have the entire country as is and everyone one around them kinda hates both of them so they're not going to help much either. 

That sounds like a great plan for someone with no attachment to the region while looking at a map, not so much for the people on the ground. If it was that simple, Bosnia and Kosovo, for example, could have been resolved a long time ago.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

That sounds like a great plan for someone with no attachment to the region while looking at a map, not so much for the people on the ground. If it was that simple, Bosnia and Kosovo, for example, could have been resolved a long time ago.

Sometimes you need someone with no attachment to settle issues. Do you have a better plan? What I presented is one that can lead to peace and prosperity for all parties even if every side has to eat it a bit in the beginning. 

[Zorral]

Palestine should have its own state. 

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Lord of Oop North said:

Sounds like bad news, hard to imagine Bibi standing down after what has happened over the last few months.

 

 

Lol. He ain't ever going away.

[House Balstroko]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Sometimes you need someone with no attachment to settle issues. Do you have a better plan? What I presented is one that can lead to peace and prosperity for all parties even if every side has to eat it a bit in the beginning. 

Generally speaking, I think your proposal is pretty solid, though it runs into some key problems.

-The loss of the Gaza Strip to Israel would not only mean that Palestinians would be vacating their largest city, but also losing access to the Mediterranean. 
 

-Jerusalem will always be a major point of contention due to its religious significance. I don’t see any way around it. 

I don’t have a solution that would be satisfactory to all parties involved, though I believe it’s possible to have Jerusalem be the capital of both Israel and Palestine, in a way that’s similar to the situation with Nicosia in Cyprus. The Old City (Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Armenian Quarters) should be placed under UN protection and remain outside the jurisdiction of either state. 
 

Not sure about The Golan Heights. Should they be given back to Syria in exchange for full recognition of Israel? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

Generally speaking, I think your proposal is pretty solid, though it runs into some key problems.

-The loss of the Gaza Strip to Israel would not only mean that Palestinians would be vacating their largest city, but also losing access to the Mediterranean. 
 

-Jerusalem will always be a major point of contention due to its religious significance. I don’t see any way around it. 

I don’t have a solution that would be satisfactory to all parties involved, though I believe it’s possible to have Jerusalem be the capital of both Israel and Palestine, in a way that’s similar to the situation with Nicosia in Cyprus. The Old City (Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Armenian Quarters) should be placed under UN protection and remain outside the jurisdiction of either state. 

Loss of access to the Mediterranean is probably the bigger issue. Since Gaza really is in need of repair and Israel could and would do it in a public/private way, why not have a tax for ten years on all development in the area? Idk what the right percentage should be, but something that would then be transferred to the new country of Palestine makes sense. Every country needs and deserves hospitals, housing, schools and roads. The international community should chip in to help as well. It would be a good investment, if not for profit than for good intention. 

Regarding Jerusalem, there is no solution that will satisfy all parties. That's why everyone has to suffer a bit. I agree though the UN should carefully oversee it if becomes a joint capital. However, I just can't ever see that happening which is why I think it should be its own little country.

If everyone was more reasonable we could actually solve 

Quote

Not sure about The Golan Heights. Should they be given back to Syria in exchange for full recognition of Israel? 

One issue at a time. And frankly Idk. 

[The Anti-Targ]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if it's changed much. I've always said a three state solution is best. Give Gaza to Israel, make Jerusalem something like the Vatican, and the West Bank should be the new Palestinian state with Israel paying Jordan for additional land if need be and also pay for most of the costs of relocation with the UN stepping in and helping a bit. To me that seems like the best solution. 

Only a very few believe it, but a one state solution is the only real solution. Jews and Palestinians have to see each other as brother and sister and choose to live with each other in peace in a common homeland. Until that happens conflict and strife will reign.

That's been my unwavering view for about 15 years.

Edited July 25, 2023 by The Anti-Targ

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Only a very few believe it, but a one state solution is the only real solution. Jews and Palestinians have to see each other as brother and sister and choose to live with each other in peace in a common homeland. Until that happens conflict and strife will reign.

That's been my unwavering view for about 15 years.

That view might have worked 15 years ago, but things have changed. Idk if there's anyway to repair the relationship between the two. Both sides are getting more entrenched in hostility towards one another.

[House Balstroko]

On 7/25/2023 at 2:38 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Loss of access to the Mediterranean is probably the bigger issue. Since Gaza really is in need of repair and Israel could and would do it in a public/private way, why not have a tax for ten years on all development in the area? Idk what the right percentage should be, but something that would then be transferred to the new country of Palestine makes sense. Every country needs and deserves hospitals, housing, schools and roads. The international community should chip in to help as well. It would be a good investment, if not for profit than for good intention. 

Regarding Jerusalem, there is no solution that will satisfy all parties. That's why everyone has to suffer a bit. I agree though the UN should carefully oversee it if becomes a joint capital. However, I just can't ever see that happening which is why I think it should be its own little country.

If everyone was more reasonable we could actually solve 

One issue at a time. And frankly Idk. 

That’s sounds fairly reasonable. I think Palestine should keep the Gaza, but make sure that extremist groups like Hamas don’t get a hold of power. In exchange, Israel dismantles all its settlements in the West Bank. 
 

Jerusalem should be divided into West (Israeli capital) and East (Palestinian capital), with no side having control over the Old City. 

20 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Only a very few believe it, but a one state solution is the only real solution. Jews and Palestinians have to see each other as brother and sister and choose to live with each other in peace in a common homeland. Until that happens conflict and strife will reign.

That's been my unwavering view for about 15 years.

That’s highly risky. While they share common traits, Arabic and Hebrew are two distinct languages, each with their own alphabet. 

I think it’s perfectly fair for Jews to have their own state, with an Arab minority as is, that is fully integrated and respected. They shouldn’t hold on to any territory in the West Bank though. The entirety of the West Bank and Gaza become part of an independent Palestine. Jews can live there, but they do not have any settlement. 
 

What’s your take on the Golan Heights? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

49 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

That’s sounds fairly reasonable. I think Palestine should keep the Gaza, but make sure that extremist groups like Hamas don’t get a hold of power. In exchange, Israel dismantles all its settlements in the West Bank. 

I just don't see how Gaza and the WB can be one country. It would be far too messy.