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3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Since when did xenophobes fall under the umbrella of democratic rights.

Unfortunately, extremists will always take advantage of certain rights, when it serves them.  And the law of unintended consequences is designed for situations where you try to deny certain individuals those rights.

Burning a book, marching down a street, making a speech, all can seem innocent.  But intent is the thing.  The burning of the Koran is less about freedom of expression and much more about putting a certain group in their place.

The fact that this demonstration was lead by an (apparent) Iraqi refugee who defines himself as an atheist adds a certain layer to the event though.

To add some nuance to Sweden's story.  My impression is that they accepted much more refugees than other European countries (except for maybe Germany) but integration didn't go as well as you'd like.  And now we have the backlash.  So negative points now but other countries didn't even make any attempt.

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4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Lots of neo nazis in Sweden and equivalent in its government, that's why.

 

That's a pretty extreme take. From what I know of the current Swedish government, its prime minister has the crazy neo-Nazi stance that, um... checks notes... refugees can keep coming but should learn Swedish and be employed.

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This is the sort of thing that eventually leads people, whether in Sweden or elsewhere, going to a mosque and shooting 50 people to death. People have to stop denying that certain acts carried out as a freedom of speech right add up to people committing violent acts against the targets of that speech.

Speech is not harmless.

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22 hours ago, Gorn said:

That's a pretty extreme take. From what I know of the current Swedish government, its prime minister has the crazy neo-Nazi stance that, um... checks notes... refugees can keep coming but should learn Swedish and be employed.

Check the most recent election.

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Two very big news from Brazil this week:

Today, Brazil's highest electoral court barred Bolsonaro from running from office until 2030

This specific case was about Bolsonaro using his office and public money to spread lies about Brazil's electoral system in a meeting with ambassadors. While he can appeal, it's unlikely he'll have the chance to be president again.

And in news that are in the long-term more important the 2022 Brazilian census was finalized and revealed a massive slow down in population growth, to less than half of what it was in the previous decade. It also revealed some of the biggest cities lost population, particularly Salvador (formerly the 3rd biggest, now the 5th) fpr the first time in history.  

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Via BBC:

Here's a round-up of some of the day's developments as France attempts to get a handle on riots that have engulfed the country this week:

  • The grandmother of the 17-year-old boy killed by French police has called for calm as the riots enter their sixth night
  • Relatives of the boy have also told the BBC they they didn't ask people to break or steal and they weren't honouring his legacy
  • President Emmanuel Macron held an emergency meeting to assess the situation going into Sunday evening
  • The mayor of Marseille has announced €2m (£1.7m) for traders in the city whose businesses have been damaged in the riots
  • Armoured personnel carriers have been seen on the streets of Marseille in an effort to quell more unrest
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  • 2 weeks later...

@butterweedstrover

Quote

No, Persian culture (I have normal Persian-Azerbaijani blood) is endlessly celebrated in the west, same with Cuba and Cuban dissidents.  

So… since you seem to think “the West” is the source of all evil… are you going to tell us that Iranian women love being beaten and murdered for choosing not to wear headscarves?  That the unrest in Iran has all been as a result of the corrupting influence of “the West”?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/watch-women-and-girls-are-still-protesting-in-iran-heres-why

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That the unrest in Iran has all been as a result of the corrupting influence of “the West”?

I don't know about "all" (that looks like a strawman to me), but the US organizing the overthrow of Mosaddegh in 1953 and the reinstatement of the Shah is widely considered to be the key event that led to the Islamic revolution.
In fact, declassified documents eventually confirmed that the US was, in fact, responsible for unrest in Iran...

So it's like... one of the worst examples you could possibly take if you want to absolve the West of wrongdoing... ? It's a bit hard to say, because it's relatively easy to find one similar story for almost every single non-Western country... However, Iranian history is still particularly well documented and quite illustrative of Western action throughout the world, so it's frankly quite surprising you'd want to attack anyone on this one... Almost as you were not actually aware of the history... ?

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14 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I don't know about "all" (that looks like a strawman to me), but the US organizing the overthrow of Mosaddegh in 1953 and the reinstatement of the Shah is widely considered to be the key event that led to the Islamic revolution.
In fact, declassified documents eventually confirmed that the US was, in fact, responsible for unrest in Iran...

So it's like... one of the worst examples you could possibly take if you want to absolve the West of wrongdoing... ? It's a bit hard to say, because it's relatively easy to find one similar story for almost every single non-Western country... However, Iranian history is still particularly well documented and quite illustrative of Western action throughout the world, so it's frankly quite surprising you'd want to attack anyone on this one... Almost as you were not actually aware of the history... ?

Had you quoted me in full it would be difficult to argue in good faith that I’m referring to anything other than the women’s revolt in Iran that began with the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of Iran’s “morality police” in September 2022.

I am in no way justifying or excusing the US’s anti-democratic actions in Iran, the Philippines, Vietnam, or Chilie.  My call out to @butterweedstrover is very specific and pointed.

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47 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@butterweedstrover

So… since you seem to think “the West” is the source of all evil… are you going to tell us that Iranian women love being beaten and murdered for choosing not to wear headscarves?  That the unrest in Iran has all been as a result of the corrupting influence of “the West”?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/watch-women-and-girls-are-still-protesting-in-iran-heres-why

I can't help you Scot. The post you're quoting has nothing to do with the content of your reply. 

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I don't know about "all" (that looks like a strawman to me), but the US organizing the overthrow of Mosaddegh in 1953 and the reinstatement of the Shah is widely considered to be the key event that led to the Islamic revolution.
In fact, declassified documents eventually confirmed that the US was, in fact, responsible for unrest in Iran...

Don't let the UK slide here. It was a joint operation. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Had you quoted me in full it would be difficult to argue in good faith that I’m referring to anything other than the women’s revolt in Iran that began with the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of Iran’s “morality police” in September 2022.

I think I got the point you're trying to make (I hope - not 100% certain), and I'm explaining why I don't think it works. The West may not be responsible for the present-day Iranian democratic movement, but it's perfectly possible to argue it's responsible for it having to exist... And while we in the West do easily forget the past, people from the Middle-East generally don't.

But you're not actually answering Butterthing's point anyway. He may be a troll, but the point he made that you are trying to answer to is -surprisingly mayhaps- 100% valid. WW2 is a notorious example of what he was alluding to. Here's a video that explains fundamental differences in war propaganda that -I hope- allows one to understand the not-so-subtle difference between fighting an ideology or a regime and fighting a people. He's arguing that Western war propaganda has crossed a line when it comes to Russia.
I don't think he's wrong. In fact, Werthead called me fascist for making the exact same point last year :rolleyes:.

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58 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But you're not actually answering Butterthing's point anyway. He may be a troll, but the point he made that you are trying to answer to is -surprisingly mayhaps- 100% valid. WW2 is a notorious example of what he was alluding to. Here's a video that explains fundamental differences in war propaganda that -I hope- allows one to understand the not-so-subtle difference between fighting an ideology or a regime and fighting a people. He's arguing that Western war propaganda has crossed a line when it comes to Russia.

What Butterthing and you both seem to miss is that there no rational justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  The use of force by Russia is wrong here.  Nothing can justify it.  Certainly not Russian lies.

 I’m simply curious to see if Butterthing blames the Iranian Women’s uprising on the decadent liberal west.

 

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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On 7/16/2023 at 8:16 AM, Rippounet said:

But you're not actually answering Butterthing's point anyway. He may be a troll, but the point he made that you are trying to answer to is -surprisingly mayhaps- 100% valid. WW2 is a notorious example of what he was alluding to. Here's a video that explains fundamental differences in war propaganda that -I hope- allows one to understand the not-so-subtle difference between fighting an ideology or a regime and fighting a people. He's arguing that Western war propaganda has crossed a line when it comes to Russia.
I don't think he's wrong. In fact, Werthead called me fascist for making the exact same point last year :rolleyes:.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.  Acknowledging the differences in types of propaganda, are you suggesting there has been a shift from ideological rationale to some sort of ethnic rationale on the part of the West?  Prior to last year's invasion, I'd say the general portrayal of the Russian state by the West has been one of apathy and the Russian people as somewhat deserving of pity for having to live in a failed kleptocracy.  It had already become the backwater that Butter is so desperately worried about, and there are more important issues in the world to deal with. Sure there were minor points of conflict in a few areas of overlapping involvement, but as the battle of Khasham/Conoco Fields demonstrated, when push came to shove, Russian forces weren't competitive.  After the invasion, the ideological rhetoric against the authoritarian regime has ratcheted up, as one would expect, but the only folks speaking of a battle against the Russian people are the mouthpieces on Putin's side, who desperately want to sell it to their own people as a justification.  If you watch their propaganda shows, they definitely portray the West as having those racial ambitions, but I have yet to hear Biden talking about Ukraine being the true heart of the Rus people and the Moscovites being imposters or some such crap.  The UK Foreign Ministry isnt exactly sending out posters comparing Russians to Mongols (and I cant imagine why that would be an insult anyways).  In the multitude of threads created on this site since the war reignited, I cant remember a single mention of "Banderite" until it was brought up by those sympathizing with the invaders.  

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Fuck Bibi. Israel just pushed through "judicial reforms" that an overwhelming majority did not want, businesses didn't want, many in the military did not want and now the expectation is this ultra conservative government are going to crackdown and go maximum tyranny of the minority on minorities and women. Awesome job dipshits. 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-judicial-reforms-vote-intl/index.html

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Fuck Bibi. Israel just pushed through "judicial reforms" that an overwhelming majority did not want, businesses didn't want, many in the military did not want and now the expectation is this ultra conservative government are going to crackdown and go maximum tyranny of the minority on minorities and women. Awesome job dipshits. 

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-judicial-reforms-vote-intl/index.html

Terrible.

I imagine the next showdown will be the Supreme Court striking down the legislation?

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22 minutes ago, Lord of Oop North said:

Terrible.

I imagine the next showdown will be the Supreme Court striking down the legislation?

Idk. I'm Jewish, but don't follow the specifics of Israeli politics in part because I'm disgusted by them. I do believe it's important to have a Jewish state, but it can't be this. It's apartheid and getting worse. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk. I'm Jewish, but don't follow the specifics of Israeli politics in part because I'm disgusted by them. I do believe it's important to have a Jewish state, but it can't be this. It's apartheid and getting worse. 

Look at you, all growing up and shit.

Never got the impression you were down with the Israeli State's colonial bullshit, but the direction of your compass on this has moved some over the last few years. 

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