GRRM Seemingly Confirms Euron Went to Valyria

[James Arryn]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:02 PM, Springwatch said:

Ned was set on his doomed path anyway, nothing could save him - the text leaves no room to doubt this.

 

This is incorrect, imo. His path would have been different. Even if we somehow discount Cersei’s statements, even if we think he himself was doomed to be caught, that would have resulted in dead Ned. But the Lannisters having Sansa…as a result of her choosing Cersei over Ned…were explicitly why he chose to kill his honour and plead guilty. He was perfectly resigned to his own death until Varys told him about Sansa. 
 

And Ned pleading guilty did, to the realm as a whole, make him seem much more guilty and therefore changed the dynamic in extreme. Had he just been killed it would have played very differently. 
 

edit: but I agree that if Sansa thinks this or anything like it, it’s not on the page. Maybe this is how he rationalized changing her from ~ villain to sympathetic in his own mind and, lol, has his own headcanon?

Edited May 16, 2023 by James Arryn

[Springwatch]

8 hours ago, James Arryn said:

This is incorrect, imo. His path would have been different. Even if we somehow discount Cersei’s statements, even if we think he himself was doomed to be caught,

There's no if about it. Ned had breakfast, waited for the death of Robert, waited for his council to assemble, and then went to the throne room when summoned. He was playing to lose.

And Cersei has been lying half her life.

8 hours ago, James Arryn said:

that would have resulted in dead Ned. But the Lannisters having Sansa…as a result of her choosing Cersei over Ned…were explicitly why he chose to kill his honour and plead guilty. He was perfectly resigned to his own death until Varys told him about Sansa. 
 

And Ned pleading guilty did, to the realm as a whole, make him seem much more guilty and therefore changed the dynamic in extreme. Had he just been killed it would have played very differently. 

If Sansa could magically escape, yes, but that's not happening. Cersei's plans for the Tower are to slaughter every last soul in it except her precious hostages. She sent the Hound. She sent Kingsguard. She sent her red cloaks and kept the less reliable gold cloaks to protect herself and Joffrey. She did all this because she wanted a job done on the Tower of the Hand and no-one  to escape it.

These plans don't include opening the castle and city gates for the Stark girls and their cartloads of luggage.

8 hours ago, James Arryn said:

edit: but I agree that if Sansa thinks this or anything like it, it’s not on the page. Maybe this is how he rationalized changing her from ~ villain to sympathetic in his own mind and, lol, has his own headcanon?

She was never a villain, she just wanted to stay in KL with her father, same as before. Cersei with her spies and allies already had much better information than Sansa ever had.

Mostly I think GRRM is playing some deep kind of game with his readers. I mean if he sees Sansa as a villain (and many readers pick up the tropes) - why not actually give her the opportunity to commit the crime? But he hasn't.

Sometimes I go wobbly and think maybe GRRM has actually forgotten what he wrote. But no way! He's had plenty of time to re-read. He wrote very deliberately and in detail. But he does treat interviews lightly. So.

[Springwatch]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:13 AM, chrisdaw said:

You have a vested interest in Euron not having gone it seems when the point is the opposite. The purpose of the Forsaken chapter which was to round out ADWD was to legitimise Euron as a world scale threat,

I've no doubt at all that Euron is a big deal. We're getting very close to Lovecraft with Euron (the tentacles), and the Lovecraftian gods would be a very good fit for Planetos.

I don't think Euron is the heroic adventurer he pretends. So far we see him use catspaws for dangerous, unpredictable work (the horn blower, Victarion). So far no-one has returned from Valyria, except one who was backed by a mighty dragon under the name of a Valyrian god. What's Euron got?

Maybe he took his treasures from the hands of his dying catspaws. Or maybe - and this is the option I like - the sailors' tales are true and there is madness in the seas around Valyria, and Euron fell victim to something Lovecraftian who offered treasures in exchange for a human host (linking to the gods' instruments motif ).

On 5/15/2023 at 1:13 AM, chrisdaw said:

Aeron deducting that the armour proves he's been to Valyria is supposed to be taken at face value and contributes to the chapter's purpose.

Still, for me that's a disappointing end for the Reader (and us, the readers). Should have played it safe. Not asked questions. Taken things at face value. Boring!

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Still, for me that's a disappointing end for the Reader (and us, the readers). Should have played it safe. Not asked questions. Taken things at face value. Boring!

I think the majority of readers will consider Euron having been to Valyria as the more dangerous and interesting resolution.

[Springwatch]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:11 PM, chrisdaw said:

I think the majority of readers will consider Euron having been to Valyria as the more dangerous and interesting resolution.

Needs a twist though. Danger has no drama when we know Euron returns without a scratch on him.

GRRM likes things to be true and not true at the same time. Some kind of shadow baby or corpse-handler scenario would fit the bill. Or not the land, but a sunken ship or city. And some eldritch horror especially for Euron.

[csuszka1948]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:40 AM, James Arryn said:

edit: but I agree that if Sansa thinks this or anything like it, it’s not on the page. Maybe this is how he rationalized changing her from ~ villain to sympathetic in his own mind and, lol, has his own headcanon?

 

 

 

To be honest, I don't particularly like the entire idea that Sansa told Cersei the truth, it would have been better if she would have just run into her room and locked it in or if she would have told it to Joffrey.

After Cersei had her direwolf killed, she wouldn't have much reason to trust her. I understand it more why she trusted Joffrey - after all, her father didn't explain the situation to her the same way he did to Arya and thus she thought she did the right thing. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

21 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Needs a twist though. Danger has no drama when we know Euron returns without a scratch on him.

GRRM likes things to be true and not true at the same time. Some kind of shadow baby or corpse-handler scenario would fit the bill. Or not the land, but a sunken ship or city. And some eldritch horror especially for Euron.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Euron had caught some illness from Valyria and worms are already inside him and make him act even more mad than previously. 

[butterweedstrover]

On 5/9/2023 at 1:08 AM, Mithras said:

That is not confirmation.

cope

[butterweedstrover]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:04 AM, Lord Varys said:

The video certainly implies that George thinks Euron went to Valyria ... although I'd be surprised if it turned out that this was true. But it certainly could be. It is not that random readers know best where people can and cannot go in a world they didn't invent.

Dude, you know he wrote the book right? 

I get spending years of one's life critically analyzing a fictional world can lead to the perspective that it is a real and undefined space with true historical ambiguity but actually its a bunch of statements of fact that serve whatever narrative purpose the author wants. 

George wants Euron to have gone to Valyria so therefore he went. This isn't like a person claiming they've walked on Venus which is in of itself impossible to fully verify as people can always put evidence provided under suspicion. 

But in this case, the author is god and can make up whatever he wants, there are no rules but what he decides. George isn't speculating one whether or not it happened, Euron is fake and so is Valyria. He is saying, for the purpose of the character and their role in the story, they have been to Valyria. 

Don't try to confuse people with "George thinks..." 

George doesn't thinks, he chooses. And he chooses for Euron to have gone to Valyria. 

[butterweedstrover]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:06 AM, sifth said:

Let’s put it this way; he’s been there until/if GRRM changes his mind. If anything I learned from the original drafts of AFFC/ADWD, it’s GRRM changes his mind all the time.

But, implicit with "changing his mind" is to say that there was and is deliberation in the story already published to the fact that Euron went to Valyria meaning the dialogue, encounters, and exposition within those published materials must be looked at under the lens of Euron being legit and Harlaw being the fool. 

No matter what Martin changes or doesn't change, that perception is ingrained into the books already written. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

On 5/9/2023 at 9:51 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Could have been there in a dream/via glass candle and not actually in person...

Why, I wonder, do you want this to be untrue so bad that you have gone to the extent of trying to twist his very simple words into a meaning that would against suggest Euron is a fraud when clearly, as stated in the clip, he is the real deal. 

[butterweedstrover]

On 5/11/2023 at 6:48 AM, Springwatch said:

I don't believe GRRM wants anything confirmed. Confirmation is boring and static, controversy is energising and keeps interest high - so if you ask me, none of his remarks in interview are canon, their only purpose is to spark discussion, not end it. Even apparently simple statements. Why set up a mystery, and then just pop the bubble without the readers doing any work at all?

If GRRM does have a taste for the direct and gross red herring, I'd sooner expect it in off-the-cuff remarks than in the books he's laboured over for decades.

Or maybe it wasn't a mystery and you just thought it was to make the narrative fit the story you want told. It was never framed as a mystery, he comes back with ancient magic, knowledge, and skills to help conquer Westeros. Hence plot. 

The historical questions of "how, when, where," are meaningless as this isn't a historical investigation, its character building. Valyria exists to shape the characters, not vice versa. It can take whatever form the narrative needs it to take, it isn't an independent body separate to the story. 

[sifth]

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But, implicit with "changing his mind" is to say that there was and is deliberation in the story already published to the fact that Euron went to Valyria meaning the dialogue, encounters, and exposition within those published materials must be looked at under the lens of Euron being legit and Harlaw being the fool. 

No matter what Martin changes or doesn't change, that perception is ingrained into the books already written. 

You also have to take into account that GRRM lies. Watch enough interviews with him and you’ll see them for yourself.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

On 5/9/2023 at 4:39 PM, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Literally in the video GRRM says, Euron has been to Valyria. He even suggests that he didn’t necessarily use magic to survive either.

Can you write GRRM's sentence verbatim here pls? There is a lot of noise, I can't hear and understand it very clearly because I don't have strong English.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Why, I wonder, do you want this to be untrue so bad

I don't care either way actually, it was just a suggestion...

And if we were supposed to 100% believe that Euron went there then why does he run out the room shortly after being asked whether he's really been to Valyria? If the author's intent is that Euron has undoubtedly been to Valyria then why include that interaction between Rodrick and Euron?

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

GRRM likes things to be true and not true at the same time.

Schrödinger’ s cat

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Dude, you know he wrote the book right? 

Dude, I know the guy wrote the books, but I also do know the guy isn't bound to random talks or even previously released chapters of his books (or all the material he actually published - he retconned things, too) since he changed that previously. So the moment we have confirmation Euron went to Valyria is when the published books confirm it - and so far the published books only include a claim that he went there, a claim made by a lying shithead psychopath another knowledgable character doubts. Meaning he could have been in Valyria ... or not. But I'm not sure I care much about this question - the plot relevant stuff seems to be that Euron got the horn and Valyrian armor, not where or how he got those things.

[Springwatch]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:43 PM, sweetsunray said:

He's talking about the horn!!! Incredible. He references the horn as an artifact of undoubted Valyrian manufacture and evidence of Euron's visit there. Not the egg, not the armour, but the horn, the same horn that other sources say came from the warlocks (and if that nugget didn't come from GRRM, where the heck did it come from?)

Have I got that right?

[Yaya]

@YeniAy_Ottoman

 

it is hard to hear & the closed-captions are whack.

this is what i can hear:
-----------
(someone asks:  another quick question?)

GRRM:  i don't promise any answers - haaahahahaahahaaahahaaahaha.

(a voice interrupts - 'sorry have to go?')

GRRM:
Motions to the question asker: ask your question.

QUESTION:
Just quickly, since the Doom of Valyria no one has been able to step into it or sail near it but there are rumours someone was able to so is there any magic strong enough to withstand the curse that is placed up on Valyria & if so which magic is that?

GRRM:
I don't know about magic ... but there are people who have gone to Valyria & you know one of them is present in the book, Euron with his horn ... ah which is definitely of Valyrian manufacture and you may find out more about Valyria & who's gone there and some people go there and they don't get to leave again - haaahahahaahahaaahahaaahaha ...
-----------

one must remember the time context:  this was in December 2016.  
all the canon is published, the "dump-truck full of money" was into season 7.

 

[Springwatch]

14 minutes ago, Yaya said:

@YeniAy_Ottoman

 

it is hard to hear & the closed-captions are whack.

this is what i can hear:
-----------
(someone asks:  another quick question?)

GRRM:  i don't promise any answers - haaahahahaahahaaahahaaahaha.

(a voice interrupts - 'sorry have to go?')

GRRM:
Motions to the question asker: ask your question.

QUESTION:
Just quickly, since the Doom of Valyria no one has been able to step into it or sail near it but there are rumours someone was able to so is there any magic strong enough to withstand the curse that is placed up on Valyria & if so which magic is that?

GRRM:
I don't know about magic ... but there are people who have gone to Valyria & you know one of them is present in the book, Euron with his horn ... ah which is definitely of Valyrian manufacture and you may find out more about Valyria & who's gone there and some people go there and they don't get to leave again - haaahahahaahahaaahahaaahaha ...
-----------

one must remember the time context:  this was in December 2016.  
all the canon is published, the "dump-truck full of money" was into season 7.

I've listened to it several times and the above is accurate.

So. To support the statement that Euron went to Valyria, GRRM uses exactly the one item that the official app says Euron did not get from Valyria.

#unreliableauthor confirmed.