UK Politics: Picking Your Career

[Week]

Wow, talk about having a finger on the pulse of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. 

The juxtaposition of the Right's 1940s family values with support/apologia for fascism makes for an interesting perspective. I'll say one side looks pretty fucked and it isn't the Left.

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Wtf does ‘try harder’ mean? Who are you to say that someone hasn’t ‘tried hard enough’?

It means don’t just give up on a marriage at the first sign of trouble. The divorce rate in the UK is 42% do you honestly believe those are all relationships that tried their absolute hardest to make it work?

None of this is controversial or some mad right wing idea. If saying marriage is good is some sort of evil statement then yeah the left has absolutely fucked it. 

[James Arryn]

12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It means don’t just give up on a marriage at the first sign of trouble. The divorce rate in the UK is 42% do you honestly believe those are all relationships that tried their absolute hardest to make it work?

None of this is controversial or some mad right wing idea. If saying marriage is good is some sort of evil statement then yeah the left has absolutely fucked it. 

Who is saying marriage is bad? People are saying bad marriages are bad, good marriages are good, and the people in the marriages are best placed to determine which is which. Should you ‘try harder’ at anything, like say sports? I guess, if you want to. But if you don’t? Why do you want marriage to be less voluntary?

 

Are you in a relationship? If so, are you willing for the board here to vote on what choices you should or should not make in that relationship? If not…why not?

Edited May 16, 2023 by James Arryn

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Why do you want marriage to be less voluntary?

Where do i say this. Come on, show me. 

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Where do i say this. Come on, show me. 

You think outside bodies have some role to play in other people’s relationships when not both of the people actually in it want that. How is that not some lessening of the voluntary nature of the relationship? Or, if that’s not what you want, what the fuck are we talking about? Slogans? Be better, think good thoughts, try hard, one day at time, eyes on the prize, what the fuck?

Edited May 16, 2023 by James Arryn

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

You think outside bodies have some role to play in other people’s relationships when not both of the people actually in it want that.

Where did I say this. Come on show me

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Where did I say this. Come on show me

Try reading it again. I presented you with an alternative. In fact I have presented that alternative to you several times, and you keep ignoring it. If that is not what you are saying, if you don’t think people should have less autonomy in decided if and when to divorce, what ARE you saying? As asked several times, are you just spouting slogans that have zero application and nothing to do with politics or the law? If so, why? What is your actual point as you see it?

[Derfel Cadarn]

22 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It means don’t just give up on a marriage at the first sign of trouble. The divorce rate in the UK is 42% do you honestly believe those are all relationships that tried their absolute hardest to make it work?

None of this is controversial or some mad right wing idea. If saying marriage is good is some sort of evil statement then yeah the left has absolutely fucked it. 

Unless 42% of marriages are failing in the first week, not sure how you can judge how hard people are trying. 
People change, and if a relationship is damaging mental health or is toxic, then its time to end it. Only reason it is higher now than in decades past is because women have greater agency. It’s not the 60’s where they were prescribed sedatives in massive numbers to ease their ‘hysteria’.

I seriously doubt marriages with kids are being abandoned at the first sign of trouble, because it is a massive effort coordinating childcare, especially if the two parties are estranged.

And why single out marriage? Why not insist people in any long term relationship shoukd ‘try harder’? What makes marriage ‘special’? And is it any of the government’s business?

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Try reading it again. I presented you with an alternative. In fact I have presented that alternative to you several times, and you keep ignoring it. If that is not what you are saying, if you don’t think people should have less autonomy in decided if and when to divorce, what ARE you saying? As asked several times, are you just spouting slogans that have zero application and nothing to do with politics or the law? If so, why? What is your actual point as you see it?

Where have I said people should have less autonomy. I’m saying they should try harder, it’s not forcing anyone to do anything. By that I mean do what is necessary to sort out your marriage, maybe it’s couples therapy, maybe it’s working on yourself, maybe it’s date nights.. what ever the problem is, work as hard as you can to fix it rather than rush to get a divorce. 
 

Nothing outrageous or authoritarian there is there 

[Derfel Cadarn]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Where have I said people should have less autonomy. I’m saying they should try harder, it’s not forcing anyone to do anything. By that I mean do what is necessary to sort out your marriage, maybe it’s couples therapy, maybe it’s working on yourself, maybe it’s date nights.. what ever the problem is, work as hard as you can to fix it rather than rush to get a divorce. 
 

Nothing outrageous or authoritarian there is there 

How do you know what these couples are doing?

[Heartofice]

27 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

How do you know what these couples are doing?

I'd say that if almost half of marriages are ending in divorce that is a pretty good indicator that they aren't doing everything to try and make the relationship work.

[Derfel Cadarn]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I'd say that if almost half of marriages are ending in divorce that is a pretty good indicator that they aren't doing everything to try and make the relationship work.

Or people change over the decades, they fall out of love, or their goals no longer align.

[BigFatCoward]

Fucking hell, sometimes it think you get stomped on for who you are, not what you say. But right now you aren't getting stomped enough. 

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Or people change over the decades, they fall out of love, or their goals no longer align.

Or people are poor judges of long term partners for marriage. Or marriage as a long term commitment is less stable/attainable due to a variety of current societal factors (changing nature of work, social media, dating/cheating apps, etc.).

Edited May 16, 2023 by Week

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Or people change over the decades, they fall out of love, or their goals no longer align.

Great, and if you have kids is that a good enough reason to get divorced or is that being selfish?

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

How do you know what these couples are doing?

Vibes.

[mormont]

Some context here might be useful.

First, the gentleman above is making these remarks at a conference organised by a group whose statement of ten guiding principles is listed here:

https://nationalconservatism.org/national-conservatism-a-statement-of-principles/

Number 8 says:

Quote

8. Family and Children. We believe the traditional family is the source of society’s virtues and deserves greater support from public policy. The traditional family, built around a lifelong bond between a man and a woman, and on a lifelong bond between parents and children, is the foundation of all other achievements of our civilization. The disintegration of the family, including a marked decline in marriage and childbirth, gravely threatens the wellbeing and sustainability of democratic nations. Among the causes are an unconstrained individualism that regards children as a burden, while encouraging ever more radical forms of sexual license and experimentation as an alternative to the responsibilities of family and congregational life. Economic and cultural conditions that foster stable family and congregational life and child-raising are priorities of the highest order.

This is the context within which this MP is speaking and what he says reflects this statement very closely. 'This is the only possible basis for a safe and successful society'. 'Marriage is not just a private arrangement' but a matter of public policy. Marriage must be 'at the heart of our fiscal system'. In other words, he's advocating for tax breaks for marriage. Presumably, as he specifies 'a man and a woman' (as does the statement), he'd like that to be specifically heterosexual marriage, but he doesn't say so explicitly.

So what he's talking about is financial incentives to stay married, which is a stale, failed idea but compared to a lot of the nonsense coming out of that conference, less offensive than some. It's not going to speak to anyone under 50, and it's rooted in that notion I mentioned earlier, that everyone else is doing their lives wrong, but there we are.

I will add that the idea that parents who divorce have not tried hard enough before coming to that decision is both offensive and stupid. I'd prefer to use a less strong term but none fits, I'm afraid. It's dismissive of the real life experience of millions of people in this country, including but not limited to myself and others in this discussion. It's not a view worthy of respect, because it's not a view that grants any respect to others.

ETA - the statement of principles above, by the way, is a pretentious mess that basically boils down to 'we'd like to freeze time'. It's entirely unrealistic and bankrupt of ideas. I can see why so many Tory MPs find it appealing.

Edited May 16, 2023 by mormont

[Zorral]

36 minutes ago, mormont said:

he's advocating for tax breaks for marriage.

Inquire of, o, say, Caesar Augustus, how well that worked out.

These were also the official and legal policies of Nazi Germany.  China's been trying it too.

But then all authoritarians think nazis etc. are the best model for all legal and public policies.  Funny that . . . .

[Raja]

From Faisal's tweet

Quote

Vauxhall owner Stellantis tells Government to renegotiate Brexit deal signed by Boris Johnson as it confirms for first time its UK electric car exports will not qualify for TCA from January as wont meet origin requirements.

We just haven't stopped winning.

[Werthead]

Divorce rates previously peaked in 1994 and had been dropping fairly steadily since 2000, only starting to go up again before the pandemic. The huge spike in 2021-22 has been blamed on the pandemic, since many courts closed during lockdowns and courts are sorting through a significant backlog, resulting in a pretty big 18% jump in 2021 compared to 2018.

Anecdotally, that would track with what I've seen among family members, friends and contacts, with people much more preferring to cohabit for very long periods and either eschew marriage, or only marry after many years and usually after already having had children, usually in their 30s or 40s rather than their 20s. The same reasons why having children in your 20s is no longer popular, including crippling debt and difficulty finding housing, are also discouraging marriage. Statistically, British marriages relative to the population peaked in 1970 and fewer relationships lead to marriage, with 2009 and 2018 both being remarkably low years.

The UK's divorce rate is also significantly lower than many other countries, with us landing more or less squarely in the middle. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, United States, China and Russia all have a vastly greater divorce rate than us, countries with wildly varying life expectancies, degrees of religious freedom/conservatism, gender equality etc. There does not appear to be a discernible pattern beyond a general, global upwards trend in gender equality over the last century.