Jon & Dany’s Parallels and What Will Separate Them at the End

[Maegor_the_Cool]

Jon & Dany’s stories parallel each other’s in a lot of ways. So much so that most fans agree, their meeting is inevitable. 
 

My predictions for the direction the story is going has them both entering their dark arcs in TWOW. Dany embraces her heritage of Fire & Blood, burning Volantis, and Jon will return more like Stark of old, taking what he believes is his, and ruthlessly killing those in his way. But just as it’s darkest before the Dawn, the winds of winter will howl and drag them down but a dream of spring will warm them. I think at least one of them will be pulled back from the ledge. And I think it will be Jon. 
 

Daenerys has desired a true family, her whole life. But she’s never truly had one. Jon on the otherhand has a loving family. His siblings, while separated, are still alive. I expect that they will reunite by the end. Daenerys on the otherhand, has never had true family as she sees it. She has advisors and friends, but no family. And she routinely ignores her advisors advice when she feels she is in the right.

I think it’s very possible that both go down dark paths in the next book, but by the end of the series Jon will be pulled back from the bring by his family, whereas Dany could fall into the darkness of her heritage completely, ignoring her advisors that beg her not to, whilst listening to Tyrion, the advisor she shouldn’t. 

[csuszka1948]

3 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Daenerys has desired a true family, her whole life. But she’s never truly had one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except Jon, who will turn out to be her family.

3 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Jon on the otherhand has a loving family. His siblings, while separated, are still alive. I expect that they will reunite by the end. Daenerys on the otherhand, has never had true family as she sees it. She has advisors and friends, but no family. And she routinely ignores her advisors advice when she feels she is in the right.

 

 

 

She usually tends to ignore the suggestions of her advisors which are violent (like freeing dragons, killing Meereenese nobility) or immoral (like ignoring suffering), though.

It's also an argument that Dany is doomed to fail due to her poorer upbringing (in this case having no family), which isn't really convincing IMO, because ASOIAF (at the end of the day) isn't a tale about realism, it's a fantasy.

 

Finally, Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character, so I doubt his primary role in the series will be just dragging another main character down to the darkness, he will have his own character development and regain some goodness IMO.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Maegor_the_Cool]

4 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Except Jon, who will turn out to be her family.

She usually tends to ignore the suggestions of her advisors which are violent (like freeing dragons, killing Meereenese nobility) or immoral (like ignoring suffering), though.

It's also an argument that Dany is doomed to fail due to her poorer upbringing (in this case having no family), which isn't really convincing IMO, because ASOIAF (at the end of the day) isn't a tale about realism, it's a fantasy.

 

Finally, Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character, so I doubt his primary role in the series will be just dragging another main character down to the darkness, he will have his own character development and regain some goodness IMO.

 

GRRM outright called Tyrion a villain. I think tyrion will be the devil on her shoulder. Whilst Barristan or Jon will be the Angel.

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

GRRM outright called Tyrion a villain. I think tyrion will be the devil on her shoulder. Whilst Barristan or Jon will be the Angel.

 

GRRM called him a villain bc he is on the side of the Lannisters and knows that they are the wrong side:

Tyrion is Martin's favorite character, but from the perspective of House Stark, he's certainly a villain -- someone once said that a villain was a hero on the other side.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Jon & Dany’s stories parallel each other’s in a lot of ways. So much so that most fans agree, their meeting is inevitable. 

In what ways?

8 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

My predictions for the direction the story is going has them both entering their dark arcs in TWOW. Dany embraces her heritage of Fire & Blood, burning Volantis, and Jon will return more like Stark of old, taking what he believes is his, and ruthlessly killing those in his way. But just as it’s darkest before the Dawn, the winds of winter will howl and drag them down but a dream of spring will warm them. I think at least one of them will be pulled back from the ledge. And I think it will be Jon. 

Dany has already gone fire and blood, like some 4 books ago when she bloodmagic'd Mirri Maz Duur by burning her. Fire and Blood. As for Jon, certainly don't see what you are suggesting. 

8 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Daenerys has desired a true family, her whole life. But she’s never truly had one. Jon on the otherhand has a loving family. His siblings, while separated, are still alive. I expect that they will reunite by the end. Daenerys on the otherhand, has never had true family as she sees it. She has advisors and friends, but no family. And she routinely ignores her advisors advice when she feels she is in the right.

 

If they unite, she may try to burn him to see if he's truly a Targaryen and if he does indeed survive, would probably lock him up somewhere, only reason she wouldn't be outright killing him not to contest her is because she believes she is barren now and without a child of her body, she'd need him to keep the TargAryan line going.  That's how her brain works.

Quote

The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

 

9 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

I think it’s very possible that both go down dark paths in the next book, but by the end of the series Jon will be pulled back from the bring by his family, whereas Dany could fall into the darkness of her heritage completely, ignoring her advisors that beg her not to, whilst listening to Tyrion, the advisor she shouldn’t. 

She doesn't listen to her advisors much now either. Also why shouldn't she listen Tyrion? He has flaws but is or at least was a decent human being and a capable ruler.

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

GRRM called him a villain bc he is on the side of the Lannisters and knows that they are the wrong side:

Tyrion is Martin's favorite character, but from the perspective of House Stark, he's certainly a villain -- someone once said that a villain was a hero on the other side.

 

Yeah, he really failed to deliver on that one though. He befriended Jon and gave him good advice, made Bran able to ride again and defended Sansa during his time at the court, despite what her mother, Catelyn did to him. Some villain against the Starks he is. 

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

burning Volantis

Oof that's a couple of hundred thousand dead at least...

Edited July 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

There is only so much destruction Daenerys can cause before I have a hard time seeing her as a hero. Fair enough killing the corrupt Old Blood but everyone else in Volantis is being killed just for the 'crime' of being a Volantene. Not to mention she is also going to be invading and bringing yet more war to Westeros based on a sense of entitlement.

[chrisdaw]

The key differences are (will be) these.

Interventionism. Jon would have walked past Craster with all his wives and daughters and no sons, while in contrast Dany

Quote

You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother's son in his hour of peril.

has to poke her nose into every injustice she happens by.

The other key is that Dany will, like Rhaegar and other Targaryens, be willing to trade a living child of her own for the power of dragons, whereas Jon, like Ned, will upon some soul searching consider protecting children of his own blood his highest priority.

[csuszka1948]

 

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

There is only so much destruction Daenerys can cause before I have a hard time seeing her as a hero. Fair enough killing the corrupt Old Blood but everyone else in Volantis is being killed just for the 'crime' of being a Volantene.

 

I doubt Dany will kill everyone in Volantis, this would make no sense whatsoever.

She will probably burn those hiding inside the Black Walls - the slavers (including children and women) and their remaining servants.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not to mention she is also going to be invading and bringing yet more war to Westeros based on a sense of entitlement.

 

Well, that's what Aegon VI does now, and many people view him as a positive figure, but yes, it's a villanous thing. 

However, I am not sure if among the conditions she will find Westeros in she (and probably Jon) won't be the only chance at uniting it against the Others. It's really her choice whether she will focus on retaking the Throne at all costs or fighting the Others what determines what path she will be in ADOS.

[csuszka1948]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The key differences are (will be) these.

Interventionism. Jon would have walked past Craster with all his wives and daughters and no sons, while in contrast Dany

has to poke her nose into every injustice she happens by.

 

Jon wouldn't have walked past Craster if he had a dragon, I think.

His reaction to the Pink Letter shows that he isn't really willing to tolerate injustice. 

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The other key is that Dany will, like Rhaegar and other Targaryens, be willing to trade a living child of her own for the power of dragons, whereas Jon, like Ned, will upon some soul searching consider protecting children of his own blood his highest priority.

 

What? Rhaegar never wanted to trade a child of his own for dragons, and Dany (perhaps unwittingly, she doesn't know) already did ('paid the price'). 

[SeanF]

Obviously, they're written to be parallels.

Each one is of royal birth, yet at the same time, an outcast from their peers.  Daenerys gets sold to a barbarian warlord.  Jon gets sent to a penal colony.  This is important to the moral development of both characters. Had they grown up in a world of privilege, they would never have learned to empathise with the smallfolk in the way that they come to do.

Daenerys does not emerge from the womb, believing slavery to be wrong.  She has to witness injustice at first hand, to make that journey.  Jon does not emerge from the womb believing that the widespread view in the North that the Free Folk are animals is wrong.  He has to first live among them, and see what they're fleeing from, and to recognise their humanity.

Very few people work out their moral views in the abstract.  It's when they witness injustice that they realise they have to do something about it.

Morally speaking, both characters are on a journey, in which they come to empathise with the people who are despised by the leaders of their own societies.  

Neither is a pacifist, although  Daenerys gets a lot more stick over this than Jon does ( or Robb, Stannis, Arianne, or Aegon, for that matter).  I think much of the reason for this is the bias towards the elite that is so often a feature of history and historical fiction.  Daenerys' victims are mostly members of the eilte, well-educated, articulate, and not backward in giving plausible-sounding arguments in   favour of slavery. The Westerosi power-players' soldiers massacre peasants to win crowns and avenge family honour.  But, the view, in-universe, is that these people don't count.  

The killing of elite Ghiscari is viewed by much of the fandom as a far more serious matter than the killing of Westerosi peasants or Free Folk.  

To begin with, Jon, like the rest of the  Nights Watch is fighting in an objectively bad cause, attempting to ensure that the Free Folk perish at the hands of the Others. They've allied with Craster, and they turn a blind eye to his crimes, and to the fact that he is an enemy of humanity.  Later on, as Lord Commander, Jon comes to realise that the views of the Nights Watch towards the Free Folk are entirely wrong, and he is keen to save their lives.  

Jon, like Daenerys, comes to see the bigger picture.  

Edited July 7, 2023 by SeanF

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Yeah, he really failed to deliver on that one though. He befriended Jon and gave him good advice, made Bran able to ride again and defended Sansa during his time at the court, despite what her mother, Catelyn did to him. Some villain against the Starks he is. 

 

He was Acting Prime Minister of a regime that planned the murder of Ned, Catelyn, and Robb, and thousands of their soldiers, and which kept Sansa as a prisoner.   He sent assassins to Robb under a peace banner.  He fully supported the burning of the Riverlands, and he armed the hill clans to pillage the Vale.

 He only broke with his family when they turned against him.  If the surviving Starks got hold of him, they'd string him up.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys gets a lot more stick over this than Jon does

I think it's because she is opening at a larger scale than Jon (so more deaths unintentionally or otherwise). And Jon is, until shortly before he is stabbed, on the defensive, not attacking like Daenerys is.

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

Jon & Dany’s stories parallel each other’s in a lot of ways. So much so that most fans agree, their meeting is inevitable. 
 

My predictions for the direction the story is going has them both entering their dark arcs in TWOW. Dany embraces her heritage of Fire & Blood, burning Volantis, and Jon will return more like Stark of old, taking what he believes is his, and ruthlessly killing those in his way. But just as it’s darkest before the Dawn, the winds of winter will howl and drag them down but a dream of spring will warm them. I think at least one of them will be pulled back from the ledge. And I think it will be Jon. 
 

Daenerys has desired a true family, her whole life. But she’s never truly had one. Jon on the otherhand has a loving family. His siblings, while separated, are still alive. I expect that they will reunite by the end. Daenerys on the otherhand, has never had true family as she sees it. She has advisors and friends, but no family. And she routinely ignores her advisors advice when she feels she is in the right.

I think it’s very possible that both go down dark paths in the next book, but by the end of the series Jon will be pulled back from the bring by his family, whereas Dany could fall into the darkness of her heritage completely, ignoring her advisors that beg her not to, whilst listening to Tyrion, the advisor she shouldn’t. 

Jon has already given himself to the dark. He is not coming back from that dark hell. He broke the vows of the Watch, murdered Slynt, and got the watch involved in a war with Ramsay. He is done.  Dany is fighting the good fight to free millions of slaves. She is not and will not fall to the dark. Dany is the hero here. Jon is the villain. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon has already given himself to the dark. He is not coming back from that dark hell. He broke the vows of the Watch, murdered Slynt, and got the watch involved in a war with Ramsay. He is done.  Dany is fighting the good fight to free millions of slaves. She is not and will not fall to the dark. Dany is the hero here. Jon is the villain. 

Fighting Ramsay and allying with the Free Folk is fighting the good fight.  Slynt was an enemy in that fight.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Dany is the steadier and smarter of the two.  She is the one going to come out of the darkness and back out into the light.  Her prophecies says so.  She will pass beneath the shadow and back out into the light.  Jon is out of his league.  He should have stayed at Winterfell milking goats and serving under his brother.  Just kidding.  Jon could steward for Robb and do that somewhat competently.  Leadership was too much for somebody like Jon.  That's why he failed. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

11 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon has already given himself to the dark. He is not coming back from that dark hell. He broke the vows of the Watch, murdered Slynt, and got the watch involved in a war with Ramsay. He is done.  Dany is fighting the good fight to free millions of slaves. She is not and will not fall to the dark. Dany is the hero here. Jon is the villain. 

Dude honestly if you don’t have anything constructive to say then keep your BS to yourself. You are bringing down the IQ of everyone in the comment section by 10

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Dany is the steadier and smarter of the two.  She is the one going to come out of the darkness and back out into the light.  Her prophecies says so.  She will pass beneath the shadow and back out into the light.  Jon is out of his league.  He should have stayed at Winterfell milking goats and serving under his brother.  Just kidding.  Jon could steward for Robb and do that somewhat competently.  Leadership was too much for somebody like Jon.  That's why he failed. 

Lol. 

[chrisdaw]

17 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Jon wouldn't have walked past Craster if he had a dragon, I think.

His reaction to the Pink Letter shows that he isn't really willing to tolerate injustice. 

What? Rhaegar never wanted to trade a child of his own for dragons, and Dany (perhaps unwittingly, she doesn't know) already did ('paid the price'). 

Jon was walking on by in direct contrast to Sam who acted. Arya is central to Jon acting against Ramsay, and the use of strangers in the passage I quoted is there for the purpose of direct comparison. These things are very deliberately done.

It will become apparent that Rhaegar expected his children to die as the means to wake dragons and save the world. Dany did it unwittingly, the existing dragons will be lost and dilemma come again, but with an understanding of how to wake dragons and the cost that is required, Jon and Dany's arcs are both leading to the point of deciding if they will or will not sacrifice a child to save the world.

[James West]

Jon has reached his end.  I say that is the difference.  Jon was a failure.  He should not get another chance.  He could come back like Catelyn or he might live inside Ghost from this time going forward.  Dany has unlimited potential because of her many wonderful gifts and talents.  She is a brilliant leader and a visionary who should lead Westeros.