Unreliable Narrators vs The Unreliable Author

[Corvo the Crow]

Since unreliable narrators are currently being discussed in another thread to claim Dany isn’t who she thinks she is, I think this warrants a discussion. Which stuff comes from  unreliable narrators and which from the unreliable author? How much does the unreliability of the author affects the story and the readers perception of it( ilke resulting in outlandish theories etc).

For example Tyrion living in Westerlands seeing several times the winters that Gared, a man perhaps twice his age and lived most of his life in the Watch is definitely unreliable author and not unreliable narrator.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Nevets]

51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Since unreliable narrators are currently being discussed in another thread to claim Dany isn’t who she thinks she is, I think this warrants a discussion. Which stuff comes from  unreliable narrators and which from the unreliable author? How much does the unreliability of the author affects the story and the readers perception of it( ilke resulting in outlandish theories etc).

For example Tyrion living in Westerlands seeing several times the winters that Gared, a man perhaps twice his age and lived most of his life in the Watch is definitely unreliable author and not unreliable narrator.

Most of the winters in Tyrion's memory were short and mild, I gather.  Maybe Gared isn't counting those.  Or it could be a mistake.  Plenty of those in the early going.

I tend to be wary regarding inconsistencies, loose ends and the like in the early books.  I don't think he had any idea how carefully people would comb through his material and pass it on to everyone that cared.  So he wasn't quite as careful as he might have been.  

Direct contradictions tend not to be the problem.  More like gaps in story, unexplained events and arrivals, that sort of thing.  For example, Jaqen H'ghar essentially appears out of thin air in Yoren's wagon, which has led to all sorts of wild theories.  I tend to think GRRM put him there to advance Arya's story, and nothing more.  No way would he do that now.  

But it can sometimes be difficult to sort out what is a clue and what is a mistake.  Generally, I figure if something specific isn't mentioned again, it probably doesn't matter.  Exception: if a POV remembers an event differently than either themselves (e.g., unkiss) or another POV, it might be important.

Later books, especially the last two, are, I think, more carefully written.  Probably one reason they take so long.  

ETA: I remember an interview where he said the size of armies and such could vary, depending on who was doing the counting.

Also, perceptions of events and characters can vary from person to person, so be careful there as well.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Nevets

[Sandy Clegg]

It is a thorny topic, and really worth its own separate thread so thanks @Corvo the Crow.

I'll paste my George quote again from the other thread, plus a few more that I think are relevant:

2006 Podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S9wK714S3Q&t=8s

There are some mysteries in these books. There are some things that I’m going to reveal later on, that I’m planting clues for. There are some later plot twists that I’m foreshadowing. There are things that are going to happen in book five and book six, in book seven, where I planted a seed for it in book one.  But I don’t necessarily want to ‘give away my hand’.

So what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed but I try to do a little literary ‘sleight of hand’. And while I'm planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving -  and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay, or something that's going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background.

So, hopefully the seed is there. The foreshadowing is there. But maybe you won't notice it … because it's surrounded by so many other things.

2014 Edinburgh Interview

https://www.edbookfest.co.uk/media-gallery/item/george-rr-martin-2014-event

“I do use the device of unreliable narrator, especially when dealing with memory. I present these scenes, sometimes from multiple  different viewpoints. And these versions don’t quite ‘jive’ and so … then you have to figure out what really happened.

The only problem with that is I, not being perfect, do make real mistakes.I would prefer not to make real mistakes, but my readers are very good. They point them out. I’m terrible with eye colours, some characters eye colours change.

And when you make mistakes like that, then … when you come across the unreliable narrator, the reader thinks “Oh he fucked up again”, but actually I didn’t  fuck up. Some of those are quite deliberate, so I wish I could eliminate the real mistakes … so that the fake mistakes could be seen for what they are, which is a sign of my literary genius.

2014 Telegraph Interview

“[Around 1998) ... So many readers were reading the books with so much attention that they were throwing up some theories and while some of those theories were amusing bullshit and creative, some of the theories are right. At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I’d planted in the books and came to the right solution.

So we have (since book one we can safely say) a process that involves:

• subtlety
• misdirection
• burying of clues ("surrounded by so many other things")
• obscure clues
• wordplay
• elaborate, long term planning
• unreliable narrators
• deliberate mistakes
• genius (he does chuckle when he says this, but ... I wouldn't be the one to disagree with him!)  

The only genuine authorial mistakes he mentions refer to eye colour. He's also expressed regret about making Tyrion able to do somersaults in book one. And there was a horse that changed gender. Those are just off the top of my head. It might be nice if @Ran chipped in here as he probably has a more comprehensive list (if he's willing to share). 

None of those errors feel especially significant to the plot. In contrast, the comments above would indicate that George is a writer of otherwise meticulous nature since book one. How else could he weave all those obscure clues and misdirections? Even the irrelevant information, in which the big clues are hiding, would need to be considered carefully.

Sure, he didn't know the first book would be a success, so he may have been a little less zealous about editing if we bear that in mind. But he began with a specific method, and that method would seem to demand a high attention to detail. If anything we tend to underestimate how rigorous he is, rather than the opposite. He expresses dismay at the 'silly' errors, e.g. eye colour, because it works against his deliberate obfuscation and 'sleight-of-hand' tactics.

So no, we can't ever know for sure the difference between real and fake mistakes - unless stated by George or his editors. But bearing the above quotations in mind, I'd say we have to assume authorial accuracy in the vast majority of cases.  Especially when we sense that such details revolve around any of the 'core mysteries' of the books, as those are where George would have been extra careful in his planning.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

So no, we can't ever know for sure the difference between real and fake mistakes - unless stated by George or his editors. But bearing the above quotations in mind, I'd say we have to assume authorial accuracy in the vast majority of cases.  Especially when we sense that such details revolve around any of the 'core mysteries' of the books, as those are where George would have been extra careful in his planning.

Right.  You cannot reject the only evidence we have because of a theoretical possibility that it MIGHT be mistaken.  Because that throws out the whole baby with the bathwater.

In the quotes you provide above (thank you), GRRM recalls people telling him he effed up when he did not in fact eff up.  In another quote he recalls reading highly creative (but bogus) theories.  But he never recalls bogus theories based on mistakes.  He seems more concerned by the reverse problem -- people missing clues because they jump too easily to the "silly George messed up again" theory.

A possible exception to the above is the Jeyne hips thing.  He supposedly told someone that the Jeyne hips clue were a mistake.  But he did not say it in writing, the text remains the text, and no errata has been issued.

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

So what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed but I try to do a little literary ‘sleight of hand’. And while I'm planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving -  and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay, or something that's going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background.

So, hopefully the seed is there. The foreshadowing is there. But maybe you won't notice it … because it's surrounded by so many other things.

I suspect an example of this is the "girl in grey" prophesy.

GRRM plants a clue/prophesy, but surrounds it with so much smoke and mirrors that most fans don't even think there is a prophesy.  They think the prophesy refers to Alys Karstark and/or has already been fulfilled and/or is only introduced to prove what a screw-up Melisandre is.

I won't try to guess what the prophesy means because I don't want to derail the thread.  But I am pretty damned sure the prophesy is not about Alys Karstark.

[Sandy Clegg]

an old thread on this topic

EDIT: Just glancing through this thread, it seems like this is a rabbit hole you would need to dedicate quite some time to if you wanted to distinguish deliberate from accidental mistakes ... 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Hugorfonics]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

Most of the winters in Tyrion's memory were short and mild, I gather.  Maybe Gared isn't counting those. 

That's a reasonable explanation.

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

I tend to be wary regarding inconsistencies, loose ends and the like in the early books.  I don't think he had any idea how carefully people would comb through his material and pass it on to everyone that cared.  So he wasn't quite as careful as he might have been.  

I disagree. No need to downplay the genius, I think all these clues and tidbits laying around in agot and later was purposely put in to be combed.

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

I remember an interview where he said the size of armies and such could vary, depending on who was doing the counting.

Also, perceptions of events and characters can vary from person to person, so be careful there as well.

Yea for sure.

I used to (well still do I guess) think it'd be cool to make like an Animatrix style asoiaf, so basically asoiaf animated but every pov is a different artist with a different style. So we see what Joff looks like for example from Sansa and Aryas perspective.

6 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The only genuine authorial mistakes he mentions refer to eye colour. He's also expressed regret about making Tyrion able to do somersaults in book one. And there was a horse that changed gender.

I don't remember the Tyrion regret comment. But if he regretted it he didn't back down as Tyrion in adwd is still acrobatic (when he threw up on Jorahs shoes). Eye color, sure Renly, who cares imo lol. Val I think is purpose though as it's surrounded by imagery and in the same book. Dancer being referred to by Theon as a girl is a mistake, but it could easily be Theons instead of GRRMs.

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

A possible exception to the above is the Jeyne hips thing.  He supposedly told someone that the Jeyne hips clue were a mistake.  But he did not say it in writing, the text remains the text, and no errata has been issued.

Again tho this can just be a matter of opinion. Cat wants to think her daughter in law would be good at pregnancy or whatever, Jaime only has eyes for Cersei. This could easily be the same thing as counting thousands of bannermen and being off a dozen.

 

So, what unreliable? I can think of two, Unkiss because although it's told and retold a book apart it's so dramatic and center to the story, mixed with Sansa not remembering Joff vs Mycha we can see this is Sansa being unreliable/ living in la la land which was definitely her theme in agot

Barristan and the confrontation with some outlaw back in the day doesnt add up with the white book written by the LCs, so his insistence that Dany didn't laugh in the face of the Dornish knights can be taken as misremembering and not polite revisionism. That he's an old man who takes hit to the head for a living supports his memory lapse.

Aside from Selmy and Sansa are there any other unreliable povs?

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Eye color, sure Renly, who cares imo lol.

I care 

Based on the eye colour discrepancy, I have a new theory that the 'Renly' who was killed was actually one of Robert's bastards serving as a body double, and the real Renly, who has green eyes, is alive and well.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I care 

Lol I didn't mean it like that. Just that with different povs it could be like Jeynes hips however probably unlike Vals eyes who's seen change color of in the same book by the same pov 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Based on the eye colour discrepancy, I have a new theory that the 'Renly' who was killed was actually one of Robert's bastards serving as a body double, and the real Renly, who has green eyes, is alive and well.

Maybe taking care of the real Jeyne and her soon to be son?

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Maybe taking care of the real Jeyne and her soon to be son?

Yes, and Tyrek, Benjen and Gerion are there with him.

[James Arryn]

Another factor to consider is that we are realizing more and more that he changes his mind a lot, and sometimes when he does some of the elements wither on the vine, others can become ‘mistakes’ which were more like roads begun that are left undone, it’s not like he just forgets about these aspects, but when he changes his mind he can also give us some ruthless moments that play pretty well, like Aerys Oakheart’s last valour. The first 18 chapters were submitted alongside that outline that he/we hate so much now, but that’s roughly where he was heading at least well into Game, so I’ve only very recently heard this and become fascinated in trying to do like a forensic read-through and see if I can figure where his garden started growing sharply away from where he thought it was going to go. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by James Arryn

[Hugorfonics]

32 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Another factor to consider is that we are realizing more and more that he changes his mind a lot, and sometimes when he does some of the elements wither on the vine, others can become ‘mistakes’ which were more like roads begun that are left undone, it’s not like he just forgets about these aspects, but when he changes his mind he can also give us some ruthless moments that play pretty well, like Aerys Oakheart’s last valour. The first 18 chapters were submitted alongside that outline that he/we hate so much now, but that’s roughly where he was heading at least well into Game, so I’ve only very recently heard this and become fascinated in trying to do like a forensic read-through and see if I can figure where his garden started growing sharply away from where he thought it was going to go. 

I haven't heard about this. What outline? What about Ser Arys?

[Springwatch]

On 7/10/2023 at 5:10 AM, Nevets said:

Most of the winters in Tyrion's memory were short and mild, I gather.  Maybe Gared isn't counting those.  Or it could be a mistake.  Plenty of those in the early going.

Yeah, this. If 'summer snows' are a thing, northerners must have different ideas about winter; maybe not agreeing with the citadel either.

On 7/10/2023 at 11:41 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

So what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed but I try to do a little literary ‘sleight of hand’. And while I'm planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving -  and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay, or something that's going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background.

I wonder where the unkiss fits in? Lots of flashy stuff happening in the Tower scene, but nothing that could be called a hint or foreshadowing. Only later does the unreliable narrator thing pick up, but it's not hidden in flashy text, it's highlighted. (Honestly she sounds to me like a perfectly normal daydreaming teenager.)

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

I used to (well still do I guess) think it'd be cool to make like an Animatrix style asoiaf, so basically asoiaf animated but every pov is a different artist with a different style. So we see what Joff looks like for example from Sansa and Aryas perspective.

Gorgeous idea.

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't remember the Tyrion regret comment. But if he regretted it he didn't back down as Tyrion in adwd is still acrobatic (when he threw up on Jorahs shoes).

He somersaulted down some stairs when drunk I think.

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aside from Selmy and Sansa are there any other unreliable povs?

Arya gets Lion's Claw/Paw wrong once, by a weird coincidence the same mistake Sansa makes. This doubling up could actually be one of the author's mistakes, for one of them at least. And she assumes the worst of Sansa's motives in multiple scenes, basically interpreting them before the reader can.

Cersei is pretty unreliable.

14 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Another factor to consider is that we are realizing more and more that he changes his mind a lot, and sometimes when he does some of the elements wither on the vine, others can become ‘mistakes’ which were more like roads begun that are left undone

Trouble is he said some 'seeds' only fully come to life in book seven, so we can't be sure anything has been abandoned totally.

He does adapt. If lemon trees were ever an error, they're woven into the plot now. And if the eye colours were ever an error, he's leant into that too by again refusing later editions make a correction, and going on to change Qyburn's eyes from brown to blue.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He somersaulted down some stairs when drunk I think.

Yea, exactly

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Arya gets Lion's Claw/Paw wrong once, by a weird coincidence the same mistake Sansa makes. This doubling up could actually be one of the author's mistakes, for one of them at least

Ok cool. (I actually cant find Sansa calling it Paw. When was that?). Its pretty funny though, definitely a better name then Claw. As Arya only talks about it with the Brotherhood theres no way Sansa could overhear it, but maybe these sisters think similarly?

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

And she assumes the worst of Sansa's motives in multiple scenes, basically interpreting them before the reader can.

Arya in agot?
Yea for sure, lots of the antagonism the reader directs at Sansa is actually through the eyes of Arya, I agree. But is this unreliable or just wrong? Like Ned cant stop thinking on why Cersei would murder JonA which is, wrong.  Its a little different then Barri misremembering his past or even adwd, or Sansa misremembering acok.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei is pretty unreliable.

As in her flashback dreams are hazy and not fully informative? Because thats like Ned. Or that its a lie? 
She thinks about how she like kinda defeated Tywin and JonA. Threw em together with Ned Robert and Tyrion who she did defeat but, Tywin and JonA were annoying but she didnt beat them. Is this they type of unreliable narration your referring to?

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok cool. (I actually cant find Sansa calling it Paw. When was that?). Its pretty funny though, definitely a better name then Claw. As Arya only talks about it with the Brotherhood theres no way Sansa could overhear it, but maybe these sisters think similarly?

Oh gosh this is a nightmare of a mess. Actually I got it wrong last time - the correct name is Lion's Tooth, not Claw.

The nearest I got to sorting it was this post here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159427-the-three-swords-of-joffrey-ahai/#comment-8709871

But it's even worse than that - apparently UK and US editions have it differently too.

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Arya in agot?
Yea for sure, lots of the antagonism the reader directs at Sansa is actually through the eyes of Arya, I agree. But is this unreliable or just wrong? Like Ned cant stop thinking on why Cersei would murder JonA which is, wrong.  Its a little different then Barri misremembering his past or even adwd, or Sansa misremembering acok.

Oh I see. I was thinking more 'unreliable witness' than unreliable memory. I don't think Arya misremembered here.

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

As in her flashback dreams are hazy and not fully informative? Because thats like Ned. Or that its a lie? 
She thinks about how she like kinda defeated Tywin and JonA. Threw em together with Ned Robert and Tyrion who she did defeat but, Tywin and JonA were annoying but she didnt beat them. Is this they type of unreliable narration your referring to?

I was thinking of this one on Sansa (actually she keeps a finger on the truth, but only barely):

Quote

"I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.[...]

She's fooling no-one, except maybe herself. Cersei's kindness consisted of murdering Sansa's father and his household, giving her to Joffrey as a chew toy, then forcing her to marry Tyrion - but Cersei's sincerity when she speaks appears absolute.

Tyrion's observation: It was astonishing how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true.

And when she tells Tyrion Sansa told her all Ned's plans, which is impossible, because Sansa doesn't know Joff is a bastard, let alone Ned's plan to depose him. How much Cersei deceives herself is a bit unclear, but she's certainly not a reliable witness.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Springwatch
fixed hyperlink (hopefully)

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She's fooling no-one, except maybe herself. Cersei's kindness consisted of murdering Sansa's father and his household, giving her to Joffrey as a chew toy, then forcing her to marry Tyrion - but Cersei's sincerity when she speaks appears absolute.

 

Cersei tried to keep Ned alive though. Also it was Tywin who forced marry her to Tyrion, Cersei didn't even broke the betrothal to her until after Tyrells came. One thing she is guilty of is having the Stark household murdered.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Springwatch]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Cersei tried to keep Ned alive though. Also it was Tywin who forced marry her to Tyrion, Cersei didn't even broke the betrothal to her until after Tyrells came. One thing she is guilty of is having the Stark household murdered.

Cersei took her part in the family machinations. She delivered Ned to Joffrey. She delivered Sansa to Tyrion.

But anyway, this was a distraction (sorry) for the main point that Sansa's life at KL was far from being one of the family, playing with Cersei's children.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Oh gosh this is a nightmare of a mess. Actually I got it wrong last time - the correct name is Lion's Tooth, not Claw.

The nearest I got to sorting it was this post here:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/159427-the-three-swords-of-joffrey-ahai/&do=findComment&comment=8709871

But it's even worse than that - apparently UK and US editions have it differently too.

Lol this is great stuff! Thanks for looking it up. (your thumbnail didnt work btw but I found the post)

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Oh I see. I was thinking more 'unreliable witness' than unreliable memory. I don't think Arya misremembered here.

I was thinking of this one on Sansa (actually she keeps a finger on the truth, but only barely):

She's fooling no-one, except maybe herself. Cersei's kindness consisted of murdering Sansa's father and his household, giving her to Joffrey as a chew toy, then forcing her to marry Tyrion - but Cersei's sincerity when she speaks appears absolute.

Tyrion's observation: It was astonishing how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true.

And when she tells Tyrion Sansa told her all Ned's plans, which is impossible, because Sansa doesn't know Joff is a bastard, let alone Ned's plan to depose him. How much Cersei deceives herself is a bit unclear, but she's certainly not a reliable witness.

 

Yea, but I think there are differences from these and the Unkiss for example, where reality is fundamentally changed (like Always Sunny's clip show episode). 
I love that quote so much, one of my fav parts of affc (with the sc looking awkwardly at each other, like well this ladys nuts). Shes definitely delusional, like the life of Sansa was not a good one (especially reflected with Cersei's own KL childhood experience with her two kings) but I wouldn't call any of it really a lie either. Certainly not on the level of her spazzing out over Stannis calling her kids Jaimes. But Sansa did play with her kids, she was given food clothing and shelter. Cersei's talks with Sansa like the BW one especially was I think her kinda trying to look out. When the mob came she didnt care about Tyrion beating up her son or the fear in the KG's eyes or whomever, she wanted Sansa safe. (How much of this is her freaking out over Jaime is hardly debatable, 99%, nevertheless a small part of her is I think actually worried for Sansa) When Sansa had to marry the "gargoyle" Cersei expressed sympathy. Cersei's relationship with Sansa is I think extremely complicated and the fact which Cersei believes, that Sansa is responsible for Joffs death I think drove her to this spazing of rage. She also had this weird relationship with Joff if ima be honest, not Lannister weird but, idk, and Joff too in his own twisted and delusional way i dont wanna say loved, but had feelings for Sansa. So when hes harassing her and Cersei doesnt blink, which leaves Tyrion to think How blind can she be, is I think a specific weird triangle of Cersei Joff and Sansa. So like, when Cerseis recapping the day over her eighth glass of wine I still imo think we should take all this is as nearly fact.  Instead of Barri remembering the days of Aerys' dad because he cant even remember Dany punking Dorans son.
The last example imo is just a comedic figure of speech.

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol this is great stuff! Thanks for looking it up. (your thumbnail didnt work btw but I found the post)

Yea, but I think there are differences from these and the Unkiss for example, where reality is fundamentally changed (like Always Sunny's clip show episode). 
I love that quote so much, one of my fav parts of affc (with the sc looking awkwardly at each other, like well this ladys nuts). Shes definitely delusional, like the life of Sansa was not a good one (especially reflected with Cersei's own KL childhood experience with her two kings) but I wouldn't call any of it really a lie either. Certainly not on the level of her spazzing out over Stannis calling her kids Jaimes. But Sansa did play with her kids, she was given food clothing and shelter. Cersei's talks with Sansa like the BW one especially was I think her kinda trying to look out. When the mob came she didnt care about Tyrion beating up her son or the fear in the KG's eyes or whomever, she wanted Sansa safe. (How much of this is her freaking out over Jaime is hardly debatable, 99%, nevertheless a small part of her is I think actually worried for Sansa) When Sansa had to marry the "gargoyle" Cersei expressed sympathy. Cersei's relationship with Sansa is I think extremely complicated and the fact which Cersei believes, that Sansa is responsible for Joffs death I think drove her to this spazing of rage. She also had this weird relationship with Joff if ima be honest, not Lannister weird but, idk, and Joff too in his own twisted and delusional way i dont wanna say loved, but had feelings for Sansa. So when hes harassing her and Cersei doesnt blink, which leaves Tyrion to think How blind can she be, is I think a specific weird triangle of Cersei Joff and Sansa. So like, when Cerseis recapping the day over her eighth glass of wine I still imo think we should take all this is as nearly fact.  Instead of Barri remembering the days of Aerys' dad because he cant even remember Dany punking Dorans son.
The last example imo is just a comedic figure of speech.

I'd be astonished if Sansa ever played with Cersei's kids, even the little ones. Sansa was just not in a playful mood in that time, and it's not what Joff wanted from his fiancee (be charming, and smell sweet, and be always afraid). Even at the tournament of gnats, she was mostly trying to be what Joff wants. I think Cersei is deluding herself over this.

But I totally agree about the weird Lannister love Sansa receives from Cersei and Joff. Sansa could have died from her beatings; she came close to suicide - but they still want this stupidly fake mummery of Sansa being happy, smiling and beautiful; loyal to her beloved Joffrey. They can't let her go.

ETA

fixed the hyperlink earlier

Edited July 12, 2023 by Springwatch
spelling

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol this is great stuff! Thanks for looking it up. (your thumbnail didnt work btw but I found the post)

Yea, but I think there are differences from these and the Unkiss for example, where reality is fundamentally changed (like Always Sunny's clip show episode). 
I love that quote so much, one of my fav parts of affc (with the sc looking awkwardly at each other, like well this ladys nuts). Shes definitely delusional, like the life of Sansa was not a good one (especially reflected with Cersei's own KL childhood experience with her two kings) but I wouldn't call any of it really a lie either. Certainly not on the level of her spazzing out over Stannis calling her kids Jaimes. But Sansa did play with her kids, she was given food clothing and shelter. Cersei's talks with Sansa like the BW one especially was I think her kinda trying to look out. When the mob came she didnt care about Tyrion beating up her son or the fear in the KG's eyes or whomever, she wanted Sansa safe. (How much of this is her freaking out over Jaime is hardly debatable, 99%, nevertheless a small part of her is I think actually worried for Sansa) When Sansa had to marry the "gargoyle" Cersei expressed sympathy. Cersei's relationship with Sansa is I think extremely complicated and the fact which Cersei believes, that Sansa is responsible for Joffs death I think drove her to this spazing of rage. She also had this weird relationship with Joff if ima be honest, not Lannister weird but, idk, and Joff too in his own twisted and delusional way i dont wanna say loved, but had feelings for Sansa. So when hes harassing her and Cersei doesnt blink, which leaves Tyrion to think How blind can she be, is I think a specific weird triangle of Cersei Joff and Sansa. So like, when Cerseis recapping the day over her eighth glass of wine I still imo think we should take all this is as nearly fact.  Instead of Barri remembering the days of Aerys' dad because he cant even remember Dany punking Dorans son.

There is nothing in the books, anywhere, to suggest that Joffrey or Cersei had any affection towards Sansa. And their treatment of her is why I'll never go along with this idea. They were either cruel to her or indifferent. There's no mention of Sansa playing with the Lannister children after Ned's imprisonment. She was given food and shelter, but I don't believe she received much in clothing (if anything.) Food and shelter, because she is an important hostage that needs to be kept alive with or without Jaime, Sansa is still a vital key to the North, they can't afford to lose her. Sansa does receive a gown from Cersei prior to the whole showdown between Ned and Co. That's the only kind thing Cersei has ever done for her. In ACoK Sansa III and ASoS Sansa II, she mentions her gown being tight across her chest, which suggests she's still having to wear garments that she brought with her from Winterfell. If I was beaten and humiliated on a regular basis, and my perpetrator tried telling me they had affection for me, I'm going to call it bullshit. There's a reason she enjoyed being around the Tyrells, and it's because they showed some basic human decency towards her. At least, up until she was married to Tyrion. Cersei expressing pity for Sansa's new situation doesn't mean she actually cares about her. It just means she hates Tyrion. Oh, we also hear from Joffrey more than once that Cersei referred to Sansa as 'stupid'.

Cersei is just lying to herself by trying to pretend she is owed loyalty from Sansa. The girl she offered shit advice to one single time. The girl she had to feed and shelter because she was an important hostage. She also doesn't want to admit that she screwed up again so she'll blame anyone except herself. She screwed up with her son, and she lost two very important hostages. She's proud and vain, and she's too self-centered to care about anyone outside her immediate family (except Tyrion.) At the end of the day, I think Cersei felt indifference towards Sansa at best.