Suppose Lyanna had survived?

[Canon Claude]

astarkchoice's thread inspired me to make this one, based around the notion of what would have happened if Lyanna hadn't died.

There are so many 'what if's attached to this scenario that I can't even begin to quantify them, especially since we still don't really know what happened to her, not even the exact manner of her death. 

But even if we narrow it down by bending to the main theory (she died giving birth to Jon Snow), then what would happen if she didn't die? 

Would Ned still agree to protect her son? Would he send Lyanna to be married off to Rhaegar's killer? Would she kill herself or kill Robert if that happened? Would she try to beg Ned to annul the engagement? Would she want to run away? Would Ned help her hide? Would Ned agree to cover for her by claiming she was dead so Robert wouldn't look for her? 

[James Steller]

Frankly, if it’s true that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, then I’d like to see Ned point out that her and Rhaegar’s actions led to the deaths of thousands of people, including two of her own relatives and Rhaegar himself, as well as his wife and kids. Let’s see her try to justify it with “but our baby is the chosen ooooonnnnnne”

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Let’s see her try to justify it with “but our baby is the chosen ooooonnnnnne”

Something something 'muh greater good' something something. Just like Bloodraven.

[Canon Claude]

19 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Frankly, if it’s true that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, then I’d like to see Ned point out that her and Rhaegar’s actions led to the deaths of thousands of people, including two of her own relatives and Rhaegar himself, as well as his wife and kids. Let’s see her try to justify it with “but our baby is the chosen ooooonnnnnne”

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Something something 'muh greater good' something something. Just like Bloodraven.

Heh, and who said Stannis and Renly fans couldn't agree on something?

[SeanF]

There has to be a good chance she’d have been put to death, along with Jon.

[Canon Claude]

Just now, SeanF said:

There has to be a good chance she’d have been put to death, along with Jon.

Why would she be put to death? And by whom? 

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Why would she be put to death? And by whom? 

Robert.  For eloping with his enemy, and birthing dragonspawn.

[Canon Claude]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Robert.  For eloping with his enemy, and birthing dragonspawn.

Assuming that she doesn't just say she was abducted and raped. Robert was quite quick to believe that story the first time.

Though I imagine Lyanna would think death is preferable to living with the man who killed Rhaegar.
But also, your scenario implies that Robert knows about Lyanna's child. Do you think Ned wouldn't hide the baby if Lyanna didn't die?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Canon Claude

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Hiding Lyanna's child is one thing, hiding Lyanna herself is another. Much as I wish that he would do what he could to hide Lyanna, Ned would have still brought her back to Robert. Maybe Lyanna would still make him promise to hide her child from Robert. Maybe she does live a miserable life with Robert, maybe she kills him, maybe she kills herself, but either way, I don't imagine that Lyanna would ever live happily with the man who killed Rhaegar. Though I'd say that's not a bad karma for her given all the bloodshed she may have caused by eloping with Rhaegar.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Will Robert really marry her with Lyanna's self confession that she was really bedded (raped) by Rhaegar? I dont think so. And even if by small chance he does, Lyanna wont take Robert either.

Her birth marks will make Robert suspicious. She will have to flee to the narrow sea. Fleeing narrow sea seems hard with Varys everywhere and Doran's own spy network in Dorne. Only options seems she will die for her child.

[SeanF]

9 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Assuming that she doesn't just say she was abducted and raped. Robert was quite quick to believe that story the first time.

Though I imagine Lyanna would think death is preferable to living with the man who killed Rhaegar.
But also, your scenario implies that Robert knows about Lyanna's child. Do you think Ned wouldn't hide the baby if Lyanna didn't die?

I think it would be hard to hide the fact she had been pregnant, although I guess she could always say Jon was stillborn.  There’s always the risk the truth would come out.

I think any life with Robert would be awful, even if she did persuade him she was kidnapped and raped.

[frenin]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

There has to be a good chance she’d have been put to death, along with Jon.

Robert intended to marry her and Lyanna is the sister of the Warden of the North, she's related to the Tullys and Arryn's too.

The child is another matter, if Ned is dumb enough to not hide him, but it is an absolutely pipe dream believing a just crowned Robert would have the authority to kill Lyanna Stark.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Will Robert really marry her with Lyanna's self confession that she was really bedded (raped) by Rhaegar? I dont think so. 

Robert says he would countless times, I find this argument baffling because it entirely relies on ignoring the books for our headcanon for the character.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Lyanna wont take Robert either

Don't think that's how this works lol.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Her birth marks will make Robert suspicious.

Doubt Robert will notice but unless well hidden, it'll make Varys figure it out.

 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think any life with Robert would be awful, even if she did persuade him she was kidnapped and raped.

Sadly I don't think there was any realistic alternative where she lives a happy life, or maybe they make the best out of it.

Eh, maybe not.

[astarkchoice]

On reflection i reckon itll go down like this

Ned will do the honourable thing..hel tell robert the truth and tell him lyanna wont be marrying him. A bitter (but maybe calmer in time)  robert will probably still have to marry cersei (or i think theres a spare hightower the right age at this point) as theres few other options at the right age and social level at that time.

Robert has no option but to accept it as ned has his army and once past moat catlin is semi untouchable anyway , dorne is furious and the targ loyalist reach still  out  there as is dragonstones large fleet (wont be gone til early next year storm) so war is out of the question (hoster would side with ned and jon arryn at best would be neutral...roberts fucked for options here)

Overall neds gonna have to step up and be regent, robert cant take the crown and have kids only for jon ..sorry aegon to replace him as legitimate heir thats be silly

The only good side is robert wont be moaning 'lyanna' on his wedding night and ned sure as hell wont want jamie as kingsguard! He wont want  LF there either, wont be overspending and will probably send the slimy  varys away too.

Overall pre kthers comming the kingdom becomes a hellva lot better under neds stewardship

Edited July 25, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Kal-L]

7 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Snip

Hum, what are you talking about ? Robert is Ned's king (as well Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister and Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell's) by the time he found Lyanna. He and the others Lords already swore fealty to King Robert at various point. There is no such a thing of "Hoster Tully siding with the Starks" or -worst- "Jon Arryn being neutral" in a situation of Lord Stark betraying his newly appointed King out of greediness and opportunism few weeks after swearing fealty.

If Ned was stupid enough to jeopardize his nephew's life and attempt to bring the realm back into a bloody war, I'm not even sure his vassal would follow him (why would they anyway since apparently his words are worthless ?). All he would meet is Robert's hammer with a high chance of baby Jon getting assassinated after having proven himself to be a potential danger for Robert's reign - all of that because of his uncle's stupidity.

No, Ned might not have been the sharpest tool, but he wasn't that stupid.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I actually think she doesn't marry Robert (which seems to be the popular opinion here). Some people actually refuse to marry. It happens. I think Eddard takes her North essentially. I don't know what Robert's reaction to this will be, but I also don't think he will start a war with Eddard...and I am not completely certain how Robert's new vassals would respond to, "Now we will attack the North cause that woman won't marry me." However, Jon cannot be Lyanna's son, which means he still gets called Eddard's bastard. Hmmm, how that will work will be difficult, but people trust Eddard being honest, so I think it could still work. It would permanantly damage Robert and Eddard's relationship, and Robert would fall apart to an even greater extent if he is refused by Lyanna. Maybe Robert drinks himself to death in this scenario? If Joffrey hadn't been born yet, maybe Stannis becomes King? That's a wild scenario, so I'm going with that (I'm not a Stannis fan, I'm just taking this off the rails). Robert drinks himself to death. Stannis becomes King. Tywin is not happy about Stannis becoming King, but hasn't really worked enough threads to do anything about it. However, Varys is still gonna want a war, but with Stannis as King, I don't think it will be all that difficult to stir discord, maybe between the Lannisters and Tyrells this time? 

In my version Lyanna lives out her life having to pretend to be Jon's Aunt, not sure how that goes for her. Torturous, but I am not forcing her to marry Robert like the rest of y'all are doing, so less torturous than anyone else here, lol. 

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Hum, what are you talking about ? Robert is Ned's king (as well Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister and Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell's) by the time he found Lyanna. He and the others Lords already swore fealty to King Robert at various point. There is no such a thing of "Hoster Tully siding with the Starks" or -worst- "Jon Arryn being neutral" in a situation of Lord Stark betraying his newly appointed King out of greediness and opportunism few weeks after swearing fealty.

If Ned was stupid enough to jeopardize his nephew's life and attempt to bring the realm back into a bloody war, I'm not even sure his vassal would follow him (why would they anyway since apparently his words are worthless ?). All he would meet is Robert's hammer with a high chance of baby Jon getting assassinated after having proven himself to be a potential danger for Robert's reign - all of that because of his uncle's stupidity.

No, Ned might not have been the sharpest tool, but he wasn't that stupid.

Pfft aerys was their king a lot longer for all it helped him. Roberts regime was always shaky  in its inital stages in in the original timline..even more so if ned isnt on board.

This is ned stark we are talking about...theres 0 way hes giving up his sister and infant nephew for a man he sees as much as a drunken buddy as his king.

If robert against character (hed forgive ned anything)  wants to use his 'hammer'.it means fuck all anyway, minus dragons  theres not much holding the kingdom together!  dorne, the vale and the north  are pretty much semi.impregnable. If robert and his new bestie tywin wanna come.north ned will be waiting at moat catlin to humiliate them

Now add in dorne is pro targ , the reach , the crownlands , dragonstone (which still has a huge fleet not destroyed by a storm) and you have more than enough forces to ensure ned isnt being 'stupid' by rejecting roberts seemingly callous demands.

Edited July 25, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Back in Black-Snow]

She had to die for the story to work. Much like Ned's death was required.

[Kal-L]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Pfft aerys was their king a lot longer for all it helped him. Roberts regime was always shaky  in its inital stages in in the original timline..even more so if ned isnt on board.

Aerys was a mad king who with the help of his son manage to make an enemy of 5 LP, (Tywin, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn and Martell who had to be threaten to support him).

Robert was the newly appointed King who had earning through his battle deeds and charisma. What shaky are you talking about when Tywin was supported him and beg to have him marrying his daughter, Jon was loyal to him and Mace Tyrell had swore fealty.

Who is supporting Ned's greediness in order to put Lyanna's son in the thron ? Princess Elia's family ?

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

This is ned stark we are talking about...theres 0 way hes giving up his sister and infant nephew for a man he sees as much as a drunken buddy as his king.

Who is talking about giving Lyanna or Jon to Robert besides you who think it's a great idea to declare war to the new king and get yourself and your family killed ?

Also try distance yourself from the discussion, you're mixing your feeling with Ned's character and this discussion is making less sense.

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

If robert against character (hed forgive ned anything)  wants to use his 'hammer'.it means fuck all anyway, minus dragons  theres not much holding the kingdom together!  dorne, the vale and the north  are pretty much semi.impregnable. If robert and his new bestie tywin wanna come.north ned will be waiting at moat catlin to humiliate them

If Ned declare war to Robert he is dead. Luckily, the author's character got enough brain not pull that shit.

But anyway I see you're joking.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

-Aerys was a mad king who with the help of his son manage to make an enemy of 5 LP, (Tywin, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn and Martell who had to be threaten to support him).

-Robert was the newly appointed King who had earning through his battle deeds and charisma.

-What shaky are you talking about when Tywin was supported him and beg to have him marrying his daughter, Jon was loyal to him and Mace Tyrell had swore fealty.

-Who is supporting Ned's greediness in order to put Lyanna's son in the thron ? Princess Elia's family ?

-Who is talking about giving Lyanna or Jon to Robert besides you who think it's a great idea to declare war to the new king and get yourself and your family killed ?

Also try distance yourself from the discussion, you're mixing your feeling with Ned's character and this discussion is making less sense.

-lf Ned declare war to Robert he is dead. Luckily, the author's character got enough brain not pull that shit.

But anyway I see you're joking.

-yes and robert is newly crowned by men who uncrowned the last one for unreasonable demands too , ned isnt giving up his sister + nephew or hiding both of them.

-robert earned it as he was the only one young enough  and who wanted it (ned refused ) and had a distant  family Link to the prev regime. 

-yes they were very shaky even with tywin and ned ,jon and hoster etc.  Lets review shall we  ........There were still 2 genuine targs out there  on dragonstone whos claim hadnt yet become a joke (robert feared them even decades later) a huge targ fleet on dragonstone unsmashed yet by a freak storm! The reachs sheer power  as targ loyalists (raised up by the silver haired mob) that jon arryn would even suggest stannis marry a florent as a link and veiled warning to the tyrells!! Theres dorne who understandably are outraged by what happened their kin  at KL .....jon arryn had to personaly go to doran to calm him down as hed raised his spears ,shit we know soon after hed bethrothe his daughter to viserys as a open threat to robert!! The calm meek do nothing image doran cultivated to contrast with the vipers wild image  would come years later! Theres still targ loyalists in the crownlands, dragonstone islands and the ironborn have just had a kingsmoot with a new unstable sounding leader! 

-well lets see ned has his own forces , the reach, dorne, much of the crownlands, dragonstones+ surrounding  islands forces  and as yet non stormwrecked fleet !!!  Jon arryn and hoster at best wont be attacking ned (hoster is marriage bound to defend ned) and overall  if ned chooses  to just bring his family north and protect them theres  literaly nothing robert can do about it! bottom line unless he finds and tames dragons moat catlin means he can tell robert to go f himself!  thats the other issue facing the iron throne in an age without dragons theres like 3 almost  impossible to directly  assault regions ! (north,vale and dorne).

-whos talking about decalring  war on his new king ? thats on robert to escalate. Ned simply wont hide his sister + new nephew nor hand them over for a possible execution or a now  unwanted robert lyanna marriage.

-ned isnt gonna declare war on robert but if robert declares war on him its probably not gonna go very well unless he can find some dragon eggs. 

 

The real issue in this scenario is theres too many known targs . Originaly we know stannis was to take dragonstone and something (not murder) was to be worked out to do with the 3 targs there ! luckily (for robert not of viserys and dany of course)  3 became 2  they fled and slowly became  less of a threat  over the years and jon was hidden in plain sight with a lie staining ned.

In this scenario though the 3 are still alive and now lyanna and lil aegon/jon is too. Its akward at best for the new regime. Ned probably wont ask lyanna to stain herself and say she was raped or the child was born out of wedlock, as  a man  he could take the shame of fathering a bastard but its different for noble women, it would sully his sister forever and hurt the family name.

No in this scenario something else has to be worked out (too many to safelt exile to the long grass esp to the interfering essosi) perhaps a web of bethrothals and wardships to ensure the regime rests easy knowing no one is growing uo to usurp them.

[The Wolves]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:54 PM, James Steller said:

Frankly, if it’s true that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, then I’d like to see Ned point out that her and Rhaegar’s actions led to the deaths of thousands of people, including two of her own relatives and Rhaegar himself, as well as his wife and kids. Let’s see her try to justify it with “but our baby is the chosen ooooonnnnnne”

Maybe I’m in the minority or just a lone wolf in my opinion but Lyanna owned no one anything. 
 

She didn’t owe her house, not her Father, Ned, Or Brandon anything. 
 

She sure as hell owed Robert nothing. 
 

She owed the people of Westeros less. 
 

I will always say Elia and her children were wronged by everyone but Lyanna owed them nothing. 
 

Lyanna probably has more blame than I give her. But I don’t think a bunch of men who had thousands at their command is not given their fair share of blame in starting a civil war.