Baldur's Gate 3: On the Highway to the Nine Hells

[Fez]

4 hours ago, Poobah said:

All the departures from 5e I've noticed are balance decisions, largely buffing terrible things, the totem l turn barbarian path was also renamed for, I must assume assume, for reasons of being racist or culturally appropriative (haven't looked in to it but that's where mind mind goes). 

I don't have an encylopedic knowledge of 5e so in many cases I don't even notice the changes. But there are two that I have that I think are awful:

1) Making mage hand a once per short rest spell

2) Making spiritual weapon a targetable unit that has a health bar and its own initiative separate from the caster's. To compensate, it no longer requires a bonus action to use each turn. But it feels awful to use now.

[Arakasi]

My problem is the divinity engine and d&d systems are a not a perfect match. Square peg round hole sort of issue. So in the end it just doesn’t feel like d&d. I don’t care that much about balance changes some of 5es balance is awful. But they just didn’t do a good job of making gameplay feel like d&d at the end of the day it feels like divinity.

[Poobah]

53 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm not sure if I like this die casting system. As I'm not a D&D player, I don't know how the die is read, and while the result of an action is clear, preparing for a result is less so. Does the game not have any tutorials for noobs?

I found the tooltips mostly self-explanatory but I am admittedly a big D&D-er. What do you mean about the casting system? Happy to help. Generally dice are used for two separate things - to see if something succeds / hits, and in this case the game transparently tells you your success/hit chance up front unlike in tabletop D&D; and then afterwards to generate the damage number, essentially a somewhat weighted range based on the types and number of die used (ie. 2d6 vs 1d12 have slightly different distributions and averages). 

@Fez I don't think I've noticed that about mage hand, did you get yours from a racial or something that gives it that limitation? I'm not in game now but I feel sure I've used it pretty much at will, I could be misremembering tho. 

It's a fair point about spiritual weapon though, I guess I just accepted it for gameplay reasons without questioning it. In default 5e it is very overpowered but mine still feels pretty effective at the moment but I'm not that deep in the game - is the problem that its hp isn't scaling when you upcast it later and it's just dying immediately or something? Right now it's actually feeling like a decent boon that it takes some heat for me while still attacking for free. 

[Corvinus85]

47 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I found the tooltips mostly self-explanatory but I am admittedly a big D&D-er. What do you mean about the casting system? Happy to help. Generally dice are used for two separate things - to see if something succeds / hits, and in this case the game transparently tells you your success/hit chance up front unlike in tabletop D&D; and then afterwards to generate the damage number, essentially a somewhat weighted range based on the types and number of die used (ie. 2d6 vs 1d12 have slightly different distributions and averages). 

Honestly, primarily this. I don't know how to read the die. When I decide on what weapon to equip a character or what spell the wizard should learn next, when the text mentions die effects I don't know what it means. Shadowheart's guidance ability has this.

And on subject of weapons, I noticed that an equipped weapon's damage range is less than what is advertised in the inventory. I'm assuming it has to do with characters' proficiency with a respective weapon. How does proficiency increase? Just repeated usage of the weapon class?

[Relic]

50 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

And on subject of weapons, I noticed that an equipped weapon's damage range is less than what is advertised in the inventory. I'm assuming it has to do with characters' proficiency with a respective weapon. How does proficiency increase? Just repeated usage of the weapon class?

Weapon profs are based on race, class, and background. Using it repeatedly doesn't give you a prof bonus to attack, as per 5e.

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Fez said:

 

1) Making mage hand a once per short rest spell

2) Making spiritual weapon a targetable unit that has a health bar and its own initiative separate from the caster's. To compensate, it no longer requires a bonus action to use each turn. But it feels awful to use now.

1) as mentioned above are you using the can't rip, or are you getting the spell from an equipped item? 

2) SW is pretty dang OP in 5e, so the change here took me by surprise at first, but doesn't bother me. It's immune to crits, and I've been bailed out by mobs targeting it instead of a low hp party member. 

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

I found the tooltips mostly self-explanatory but I am admittedly a big D&D-er. What do you mean about the casting system? Happy to help. Generally dice are used for two separate things - to see if something succeds / hits, and in this case the game transparently tells you your success/hit chance up front unlike in tabletop D&D; and then afterwards to generate the damage number, essentially a somewhat weighted range based on the types and number of die used (ie. 2d6 vs 1d12 have slightly different distributions and averages). 

@Fez I don't think I've noticed that about mage hand, did you get yours from a racial or something that gives it that limitation? I'm not in game now but I feel sure I've used it pretty much at will, I could be misremembering tho. 

It's a fair point about spiritual weapon though, I guess I just accepted it for gameplay reasons without questioning it. In default 5e it is very overpowered but mine still feels pretty effective at the moment but I'm not that deep in the game - is the problem that its hp isn't scaling when you upcast it later and it's just dying immediately or something? Right now it's actually feeling like a decent boon that it takes some heat for me while still attacking for free. 

9 minutes ago, Relic said:

1) as mentioned above are you using the can't rip, or are you getting the spell from an equipped item? 

2) SW is pretty dang OP in 5e, so the change here took me by surprise at first, but doesn't bother me. It's immune to crits, and I've been bailed out by mobs targeting it instead of a low hp party member. 

1) Nope, its a universal change. See the reddit thread here complaining about it 

2) The change does bring its own benefits. But I hate casting it in a patch of burning ground for instance and it taking damage. And if it gets killed its first round of being, that just feels like a major waste of a 2nd (or higher) level spell slot. I agree that it was strong in 5e, but it was a critical part of a cleric's offensive package.

Also, I don't feel like this was a balancing nerf. This feels more like a game engine limitation, where they didn't have a way to make an untargetable summon.

[Poobah]

Before I begin I will note that the tooltips are quite detailed. I'm not sure how one would access the in depth ones with a controller but on KB+M there's a prompt to press T to examine or see details or something like that, then you can mouseover and get further details on all those keywords and underlined bits in them which does give a fair bit of explanation of most of this stuff.

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Honestly, primarily this. I don't know how to read the die. When I decide on what weapon to equip a character or what spell the wizard should learn next, when the text mentions die effects I don't know what it means. Shadowheart's guidance ability has this.

Ok so the nomenclature is to indicate what type of die is being rolled, with D&D dice having various numbers of sides and being labelled as you would expect - guidance is +1d4 which means it rolls a four sided die so your outcomes are 1,2,3,4 evenly distributed. A d6 is a basic six sided die, there's a d8, a d10, a d12, and a d20 all with the respective numbers of sides. If something indicates that it rolls more than a single die for its damage (gonna use fireball for all my examples since it's a very well known and recognisable spells) then you sum the totals on all the dice you rolled eg. you roll 8d6 for fireball damage and roll 3,4,1,6,5,4,2,2 = 27 damage.

I don't know how much you know about statistics but when you roll more than a single die your outcomes are going to become weighted more towards the average in a normal distribution. If you want to get an idea of how this would look and the probabilities involved try using AnyDice and put in "output 8d6" to simulate that fireball.

Quote

And on subject of weapons, I noticed that an equipped weapon's damage range is less than what is advertised in the inventory. I'm assuming it has to do with characters' proficiency with a respective weapon. How does proficiency increase? Just repeated usage of the weapon class?

Proficiency is a stat that rises with your level, a baseline bonus that makes you stronger at things you are good at over time. If you're proficient in a skill you add your proficiency to the roll total on the D20 when you make a check (rogues and bards also get to select expertise in some skills which allows them to add double their proficiency). A character is either proficient with a weapon in which case they add their proficiency bonus when making attack rolls with it or they are not and can't - you don't gain proficiency with stuff through use, only through stuff like class selection, backgrounds, race, etc. Possibly (likely?) there're some events and similar that can give proficiency with stuff too in game.

It should be very rare for damage to be less than advertised... usually I would expect it to be more. I think you can only go as low as 8 in a stat in this game so if it's 1 point lower it would be because the character in question has 8 in the attribute and thus a -1 modifier. When rolling to hit with a weapon you roll a d20, then add your proficiency if you're proficient and a modifier based on your character's stats and the type of attack, then compare it to the AC (armour class) of the thing you are attacking, and if you have more you hit. You then roll whichever die or dice are associated with the weapon and then add the appropriate stat bonus to the total for the damage. All melee weapons use strength, ranged weapons and melee weapons marked as "finesse" can use dexterity instead, and your spell attacks will use whichever attribute your class uses for their spells ie. Cleric will use wisdom and Wizard will use intelligence. The way stat bonuses are derived in D&D 5e is that 10 is considered the baseline and then you either gain a bonus or get a penalty for every 2 points past that you go in either direction so someone with 8 or 9 strength would have -1 to attacks with weapons that use strength for instance, whereas someone with 18 strength would have +4.

Quick example: I attack a goblin with my rapier on a level 1 rogue. I have 16 dexterity and am proficient with the rapier, which is a finesse weapon. So I roll a d20 then add 2 for my proficiency and 3 for my dex bonus (1d20+2+3). For the damage I roll a d8 and add 3 for my dex again for a total somewhere between 4 and 11.

Sorry if this is too much of the nerdy details. I can try and slim it down if needed.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Poobah

[Werthead]

There is actually a way to trigger combat in realtime, but not reliably:

1) create a party entirely of animal-summoners/animal companion-users (druids and rangers, mostly). This may involve respeccing.

2) have everyone create an army of bears/animal minions.

3) have the party hang out in a corner of the map and send their minions across the map to wreak havoc.

When attacking neutral/good guys, the game stays in realtime because it gets confused because your party isn't there and they don't fight back.

Unfortunately, when attacking hostile creatures the game switches to turn-based regardless, and sometimes the game warps in your OG party from wherever they were to take part in dialogue exchanges.

[Leofric]

53 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Proficiency is a stat that rises with your level, a baseline bonus that makes you stronger at things you are good at over time. If you're proficient in a skill you add your proficiency to the roll total on the D20 when you make a check (rogues and bards also get to select expertise in some skills which allows them to add double their proficiency). A character is either proficient with a weapon in which case they add their proficiency bonus when making attack rolls with it or they are not and can't - you don't gain proficiency with stuff through use, only through stuff like class selection, backgrounds, race, etc. Possibly (likely?) there're some events and similar that can give proficiency with stuff too in game.

 

You can also gain weapon proficiency every 4 levels when you are given the option to select a feat, some of the feat options will give proficiency in different weapons or skills.  Another option is to multiclass, you can take a level in a melee class (fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin) to become proficient in the use of martial weapons. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Leofric

[Arakasi]

Got this from another forum but one of the most annoying things in this game is being forced into conversations based on proximity or a particular attack in a fight, with no way to change character. It forces you to have conversations with no conversation skills meanwhile your charisma character is 3 feet away. Makes no sense whatsoever. Was an issue in divinity as well but there wasn’t really party faces like there is in d&d.

 

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Got this from another forum but one of the most annoying things in this game is being forced into conversations based on proximity or a particular attack in a fight, with no way to change character. It forces you to have conversations with no conversation skills meanwhile your charisma character is 3 feet away. Makes no sense whatsoever. Was an issue in divinity as well but there wasn’t really party faces like there is in d&d.

 

I have observed this in Solasta as well, which is 5E and does the exact same thing. 

[IlyaP]

@Corvinus85 if BG3 is frustrating you, Solasta: Crown of the Magister is a bit more focused and less overwhelming, I find, than BG3. 

[Arakasi]

2 hours ago, IlyaP said:

I have observed this in Solasta as well, which is 5E and does the exact same thing. 

Thankfully WotR does it right in that regardless of who initiates you use the best diplomacy from the party.

[karaddin]

I was correct about being just near the end, so I've finished now. My save file shows ~65 hours of play time but that doesn't include all the time after a save that gets lost when I load back to a save and there would have been at least 5 hours of that.

The ending I got was heroic but no idea where it would be judged on the scale from good to bad lol. Spoiler is thoughts on the ending

Spoiler

I opted to do the heroic sacrifice and become a mindflayer myself after refusing to trust the Emperor and he fucked off to join the netherbrain - not sure if this vindicates my distrust or is proof I should have trusted.

I was expecting Karlach to be pretty upset about this given all the conversations about the future with her previously, but literally not a word from her. Combine that with her questline trailing off with no way to actually repair her internal machine  leaving her to either go back to hell, turn into a mindflayer or die its pretty dark in a way that feels incomplete. There's all this internal iron, enriched internal iron and steel watch with newer versions of her heart but we can't even try adapt it?

I also offed myself at the end as it was clear I was going to turn into a mindflayer in thought and behaviour over time so needed to finish the heroic sacrifice arc. But it's quite the choice to have the main character suicide as part of a heroic ending. Cyberpunk 2077 has that option but it's not heroic and the cutscenes which follow are devastating and I believe work to deter suicide, this doesn't really have those safe guards. It's a tricky subject to tackle due to the potential for unintended irl harm.

The choice to turn into a mindflayer, at least in the route that I followed, is a choice and the only downside to the tadpole powers is making you a bit ugly after act 2 if you fail a roll to become part ilithid. I'm not sure if I'll even try avoid that in the future though, some of the powers unlocked by it are too good - mainly just the flight skill. Replacing jump with a far longer range, no line of sight requirement and no wasting bonus actions to use is huge.

 

[Corvinus85]

8 hours ago, Poobah said:

It should be very rare for damage to be less than advertised... usually I would expect it to be more. I think you can only go as low as 8 in a stat in this game so if it's 1 point lower it would be because the character in question has 8 in the attribute and thus a -1 modifier. When rolling to hit with a weapon you roll a d20, then add your proficiency if you're proficient and a modifier based on your character's stats and the type of attack, then compare it to the AC (armour class) of the thing you are attacking, and if you have more you hit. You then roll whichever die or dice are associated with the weapon and then add the appropriate stat bonus to the total for the damage. All melee weapons use strength, ranged weapons and melee weapons marked as "finesse" can use dexterity instead, and your spell attacks will use whichever attribute your class uses for their spells ie. Cleric will use wisdom and Wizard will use intelligence. The way stat bonuses are derived in D&D 5e is that 10 is considered the baseline and then you either gain a bonus or get a penalty for every 2 points past that you go in either direction so someone with 8 or 9 strength would have -1 to attacks with weapons that use strength for instance, whereas someone with 18 strength would have +4.

Quick example: I attack a goblin with my rapier on a level 1 rogue. I have 16 dexterity and am proficient with the rapier, which is a finesse weapon. So I roll a d20 then add 2 for my proficiency and 3 for my dex bonus (1d20+2+3). For the damage I roll a d8 and add 3 for my dex again for a total somewhere between 4 and 11.

Thank you. On the bolded, I see the situation where say the longsword I have says 6-13 damage range as equipped. I put it in inventory and it says 6-15 range. As a Fighter my character has 17 strength. There even bigger discrepancies for other weapons with other characters.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Corvinus85

[karaddin]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Thank you. On the bolded, I see the situation where say the longsword I have says 6-13 damage range as equipped. I put it in inventory and it says 6-15 range. As a Fighter my character has 17 strength. There even bigger discrepancies for other weapons with other characters.

Are you equipping it 1 or 2 handed? Longsword is "versatile" which means it can be used as either, but it's damage range drops if you use it 1 handed. This would mean with a shield, I don't think you can accidentally set it to 1 handed when you're not using anything else.

[Corvinus85]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Are you equipping it 1 or 2 handed? Longsword is "versatile" which means it can be used as either, but it's damage range drops if you use it 1 handed. This would mean with a shield, I don't think you can accidentally set it to 1 handed when you're not using anything else.

1 one handed as I have a shield. If I remove the shield, the low end of the damage range actually drops.

[karaddin]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

1 one handed as I have a shield. If I remove the shield, the low end of the damage range actually drops.

Lol, the top end is meant to drop by 2 I think which matches what you're seeing (it changes from a 10 sided die to 8 sided) but not sure what's causing the lower range to drop without a shield. Other feats/fighting styles I guess.

[DanteGabriel]

5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Lol, the top end is meant to drop by 2 I think which matches what you're seeing (it changes from a 10 sided die to 8 sided) but not sure what's causing the lower range to drop without a shield. Other feats/fighting styles I guess.

Maybe that's the Duelist fighting style...