Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[maesternewton]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:25 PM, Darrow of Lykos said:

I understand you want to keep glazing the Targaryens and are blind to logic, but you can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact that show and book canon are seperate. Nymeria immediately assimilated with the Dornish and their cultures melded. You also don’t acknowledge that Nymeria and her people were refugees fleeing from the Targaryens and Valyrians.

Tbf, just because Nymeria and the Rhoynar assimilated. Doesn't really change the underlying fact that they were foreign invaders. They were welcomed by Mors Martell, but I'm sure the other Dornish rulers at that time didn't welcome them into their lands. 

On 8/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, Darrow of Lykos said:

My problems with the dream is that it’s never been hinted at in the books, and the fact it makes The Targaryens look like morons.

It is actually hinted at. 

Quote

Such questions abound even to this day. Before the Doom of Valyria, maesters and archmaesters oft traveled to the Freehold in search of answers, but none were ever found. Septon Barth’s claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth’s queerer beliefs and suppositions. - TWOIAF

Then the is a fact that Rhaegar read it in a book, which could have been the one written by Daenys the Dreamer. 

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

Yeah, it would have never happened because it would always constantly be a War of the 7 Kings every decade lol. 

It would have been a different type of war, based upon rival kingdoms conquering territories, rather than fighting for the throne at Kings Landing.

Each kingdom/region of the Seven Kingdoms is able to call up 17th century-sized armies, which means that fighting and pillaging is always going to be on a 17th century-sized scale.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

Probably not the first person to raise this question, but slavery in Essos is outrageously unbelievable.

Like 1 free person per 3 slaves in the Disputed Lands? 1 free person per 5 slaves in Volantis? A system like that should be dead on arrival by the events of ASOIAF.

[Willam Stark]

27 minutes ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Probably not the first person to raise this question, but slavery in Essos is outrageously unbelievable.

Like 1 free person per 3 slaves in the Disputed Lands? 1 free person per 5 slaves in Volantis? A system like that should be dead on arrival by the events of ASOIAF.

Bad worldbuilding.

[SeanF]

34 minutes ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Probably not the first person to raise this question, but slavery in Essos is outrageously unbelievable.

Like 1 free person per 3 slaves in the Disputed Lands? 1 free person per 5 slaves in Volantis? A system like that should be dead on arrival by the events of ASOIAF.

There have been outrageous ratios of slave to free, in the Sugar Colonies, Sparta, and parts of the Deep South and Brazil.

But, one would expect the slavers and free citizens to be highly militarised, for fear of slave revolts, and certainly not to be recruiting slave soldiers.  New Ghis (where every citizen serves three years in the army) ought to be the norm in the slave States. 

Nor do I think you can base an economy upon slave-trading.  Yes, individual towns like ancient Delos, or 18th century Bristol, might prosper off the back of slave-trading, but not whole economies.  A more realistic take on Slavers Bay would have the Masters operating mines and latifundia, with slaves being worked to death producing commodities like copper, sugar, coffee, salt, spices, for export, and then being replaced by fresh slaves.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

Just now, SeanF said:

There have been outrageous ratios of slave to free, in the Sugar Colonies, Sparta, and parts of the Deep South and Brazil.

But, one would expect the slavers and free citizens to be highly militarised, for fear of slave revolts, and certainly not to be recruiting slave soldiers.  New Ghis (where every citizen serves three years in the army) ought to be the norm in the slave States. 

Nor do I think you can base an economy upon slave-trading.  Yes, individual towns like ancient Delos, or 18th century Bristol, might prosper off the back of slave-trading, but not whole economies.  A more realistic take on Slavers Bay would have the Masters operating mines and latifundia, with slaves being worked to death producing commodities like copper, sugar, coffee, salt, spices, for export, and then being replaced by fresh slaves.

Fair, but anything of this scale is bound to have serious problems. Haiti basically fell under a slave revolt when the French metropole started to have something called a revolution. Also the Confederacy was 1/3 slaves so not really as extreme as slavery in the books. You're right about the need for free citizens and slavers to be highly militarized. And for some reason they leave everything to sellswords which, knowing their tendency to be loyal to only money, is bound to go swimmingly.

Agreed on Slaver's Bay. Perhaps GRRM didn't care to go into detail. Also, I noticed that Slaver's Bay isn't exactly around places where one can easily get slaves. Would be way better for Slaver's Bay to be relocated elsewhere where the cities can be former colonies that exist solely to get slaves from the hinterland and beyond.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

29 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Bad worldbuilding.

Yep. I've been on many a forum and discussion thread about this. Apparently of all of the fantasy series, GRRM's gets the most flak for worldbuilding issues.

[SaffronLady]

11 minutes ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Yep. I've been on many a forum and discussion thread about this. Apparently of all of the fantasy series, GRRM's gets the most flak for worldbuilding issues.

ASOIAF is abnormally popular, after all.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

3 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

ASOIAF is abnormally popular, after all.

I'm surprised there's not as much discussion about LOTR worldbuilding issues tbh.

[KingAerys_II]

3 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Tbf, just because Nymeria and the Rhoynar assimilated. Doesn't really change the underlying fact that they were foreign invaders. They were welcomed by Mors Martell, but I'm sure the other Dornish rulers at that time didn't welcome them into their lands. 

It is actually hinted at. 

Then the is a fact that Rhaegar read it in a book, which could have been the one written by Daenys the Dreamer. 

Nymeria forced Dorne to adopt Rhoynar customs, they tried to resist, she successfully conquered them, repressed every rebellion and escaped to dozen assassination attempts 

[KingAerys_II]

Aerys I is one of the most important king, he recovered "A Song of Ice and Fire" in a scroll, the prophecy became the reason why Jahaerys II arranged the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella 

Edited August 22, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aerys I is one of the most important king, he recovered "A Song of Ice and Fire in a scroll, the prophecy became the reason why Jahaerys II arranged the marriage between Aerys and Rhaella 

Wrong. Jaehaerys II decided to marry Aerys II and Rhaella because of a prophecy he heard from the GoHH.

TWoIaF, Aegon V

“Jaehaerys and Shaera would have two children, Aerys and Rhaella. On the word of Jenny of Oldstone’s woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. King Aegon washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way.”

 

[KingAerys_II]

I am surprised he didn't consider her a charlatan. 

At some point, Aerys read a prophecy that spoke about the return of dragons. 

It's important, where did Rhaegar read about "A Song of Ice and Fire"? 

I think Aerys I to be the most important king after Daeron II

[Legion88]

Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was consensual and they're not the worst people on Westeros.

It's absolutely lovely how in asoiaf fandom the ONE event that encapsulates the absolute VILENESS of Targaryens/Rhaegar's usurpers (Elia and her children's death) has become all about Rhaegar's failings. I love how Robert, Aerys and the Lannisters are getting a pass.

Character are supposed to fuck up and create conflict, their actions are a way for the author to explore a theme. Every single character in this book makes mistakes that have horrible unintended results.

Reducing what Rhaegar and Lyanna means for the narrative, and Jon's themes of love vs duty in particular, to just "Rhaegar Bad" is just a bad faith way of engaging with the story.

[sifth]

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

GRRM is on record stating that Stannis will burn Shireen. 

GRRM also changes his mind as posted above. Read the notes of the original drafts of AFFC and ADWD if you don't believe me. Also let's not pretend D&D did change character arcs all over the place.

Edited August 22, 2023 by sifth

[KingAerys_II]

Lannisters killed Elia and her children, Jaime was busy killing the king, but Rhaegar gave him the duty to protect them, they were hostages to blackmail Dorne. 

However Tywin died shitting himself thanks to Tyrion and Varys, Armory Lorch eaten by Vargo's bear, Qyburn made things to Ser Gregor that are worse than death, I suppose, Robert killed by a giant pig after being poisoned by the wife, who wished to enjoy the Myrish swamp, so in the end they paid the price

[maesternewton]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

GRRM also changes his mind as posted above. Read the notes of the original drafts of AFFC and ADWD if you don't believe me. Also let's not pretend D&D did change character arcs all over the place.

Sure, but what are you basing your opinion on that he will change it? 

And what reason would he have to do so?

[sifth]

1 hour ago, maesternewton said:

Sure, but what are you basing your opinion on that he will change it? 

And what reason would he have to do so?

Because I hated it and the logical reason being that Stannis is thousands of miles from his daughter when last we saw him. So Stannis killing his daughter, because he thinks it will end a storm and help him win a battle doesn't even logically make sense, from where the character last was.

He also recently posted that the more he writes the more his story seems to be diverging from the events of the show.

Edited August 22, 2023 by sifth

[maesternewton]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Because I hated it and the logical reason being that Stannis is thousands of miles from his daughter when last we saw him. So Stannis killing his daughter, because he thinks it will end a storm and help him win a battle doesn't even logically make sense, from where the character last was.

He also recently posted that the more he writes the more his story seems to be diverging from the events of the show.

So you think it won't happen because you hate and GRRM will somehow change his mind? He is thousand of miles from Shireen but that can change through the course of events in TWOW.

Also saying he is gonna change it just because he has change certain things from his draft is like saying GRRM will change R+L=J. The are probably big plot events in the books that I doubt heavily will ever be changed.

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, maesternewton said:

So you think it won't happen because you hate and GRRM will somehow change his mind? He is thousand of miles from Shireen but that can change through the course of events in TWOW.

Also saying he is gonna change it just because he has change certain things from his draft is like saying GRRM will change R+L=J. The are probably big plot events in the books that I doubt heavily will ever be changed.

If it happens, it will likely go down in a rather different way to the show. Stannis is already almost at Winterfell and neither Mel nor Shireen is with him. Even if the weather worsens and he can't make more progress, trying to fetch Shireen from Castle Black is impractical at this point, especially since he has what he considers to be valid sacrifices on hand (viz. the Greyjoys and Karstarks).

It's hard to see how Stannis will be in a position to sacrifice Shireen before he meets the Boltons.

Based on where we are both geographically and character-wise at the end of ADwD, Selyse seems much more likely to burn Shireen than Stannis.