Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[frenin]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

Funnily, I think that Theon was necessary.  Headhunting is obviously … not great, but it did deter future raids.

Never ask Theon Stark or a northmen what happened in Andalos or in the Fingers.

[The Wolves]

I talk about how Robert was a horrible friend, father, king, person all round but he was surrounded by horrible people. 
 

Ned and Jon Arryn along with Stannis and Renly also Cersei and his advisors were enablers. Robert got where he was because no one called him out. He was babied by Arryn and hyped by Ned. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

I talk about how Robert was a horrible friend, father, king, person all round but he was surrounded by horrible people. 
 

Ned and Jon Arryn along with Stannis and Renly also Cersei and his advisors were enablers. Robert got where he was because no one called him out. He was babied by Arryn and hyped by Ned. 

lololol. lolol. lol. No. This is not what enabling is. Enabling would be actively encouraging shitty behaviors, which I know for a fact Eddard did not do. Loving someone despite their flaws is NOT enabling. Ridiculous tske. Like truly ridiculius. why do people want to take blame off of Robert so bad?

[SaffronLady]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

What is the incentive to marry Joffrey to Margaery when the problem the Baratheon have is with Cersei, who will no dount have beef with the Tyrells?

Wait, why is that a problem? Cersei would serve as a counter to Margaery, instead of allying with the queen and usurping the Baratheons. That is good. That could be good enough to be the sole cause of the marriage.

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

Still and in theory, Sansa came with a far better package.

Sansa's House's forces lie north of the Neck and are months away from any battlefield in the south. I fail to see how that is better than Margaery, who has a House that could project a larger army faster in most political situations.

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

Or do you believe that when Eddard, Paxter Redwyne, Stannis or Tywin answered his call... they said they weren't asking to their liege but their brother/son in law

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

I find this argument quite surprising.

Jaeharys won the Fourth and Third Dornish War by relying on his father in law (Rogar), his brother (Boremund) and his sons... by that same logic does he have zero royal authority?

What do you mean when you say royal authority? What's the criteria, who has it and who doesn't? 

I'll put these two together because they are related.

I admit feudalism, by definition, blurs what it means to exercise royal authority, and what it means to call on personal relations, because in a feudal society royal authority sits on a web of personal relations. A more imperial and bureaucratic system could make the lines clearer though not absolute.

But in the specific cases you mentioned, Jaehaerys is not only a cheat player - I'm sorry, dragonrider - but he also fought on the front lines. He is taking a very hands-on approach to the war effort, and it could be said he is exercising royal authority through fighting with his troops. The same thing could be said of Robert, except - it is explicitly mentioned Robert dislikes counting coppers, so JArryn is by implication managing the overall logistics for him. If fighting among the men alone is enough to be a sufficient support of royal authority, Westeros would look like the Roman Empire during the Crisis of the 3rd Century, every general with the support of the army sitting on the Iron Throne for a couple of years.

To put it in the simplest way, royal authority could be evaluated by how much the king's will is executed. And Robert's last will was ignored both by his wife and his Hand, so he takes a huge hit because of it.

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

Without them the Blacks cannot win.

The Blacks took losses in a very contrived way. The Battle of the Gullet, the two traitors ... the Winter Wolves were more important for making way for the Hour of the Wolf instead of the Black victory if Daemon was in full charge of the war effort. As the story stands, though, I could agree the Winter Wolves fighting in the riverlands did play a pivotal role in helping Rhaenyra move to KL.

Speaking of the Blacks, Rhaenyra was about as active during the Dance as Zubayr was during the Second Fitna. Without Daemon firefighting she should have lost the war three months in tbh.

On 12/11/2023 at 7:03 PM, frenin said:

Succesion crisis that leads to civil war? not so sure.

A successsion crisis could avoid blossoming into civil war when there is one faction powerful enough to stop it. At Robert's death, no such faction apparently exists.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Wait, why is that a problem? Cersei would serve as a counter to Margaery, instead of allying with the queen and usurping the Baratheons. That is good. That could be good enough to be the sole cause of the marriage.

Counter to Margaery? Or enemy of Margaery and would no doubt try to blow the whole thing up as she did in canon?

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Sansa's House's forces lie north of the Neck and are months away from any battlefield in the south. I fail to see how that is better than Margaery, who has a House that could project a larger army faster in most political situations.

Sansa's House alo bring in two other Houses who can also project their power over all the south.

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

but he also fought on the front lines. He is taking a very hands-on approach to the war effort, and it could be said he is exercising royal authority through fighting with his troops.

 

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

but he also fought on the front lines. He is taking a very hands-on approach to the war effort, and it could be said he is exercising royal authority through fighting with his troops.[...]The same thing could be said of Robert, except - it is explicitly mentioned Robert dislikes counting coppers, so JArryn is by implication managing the overall logistics for him

I'm not following you here.

What has A to do with B?

On the one side you're Jaeharys was exercising his royal authority by fighting with hs troops and on the other you're arguing that fighting with your troops isn't exercising royal authority.

Do you think that people who delegate aren't exercising their authority?

 

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

To put it in the simplest way, royal authority could be evaluated by how much the king's will is executed. And Robert's last will was ignored both by his wife and his Hand, so he takes a huge hit because of it.

I agree with this sentiment.

But wouldn't that again put Jaeharys on the same spot? The decision to call on the Great Council was explicitly done because neither faction would accept his final decision and would resort to war.

And how much the royal authority can be evaluated when you're dead. How can you exercize your authority then?

Cersei ignores Tywin's designs for her once he's dead... Does that mean he had no authority?

 

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

The Blacks took losses in a very contrived way. The Battle of the Gullet, the two traitors ... the Winter Wolves were more important for making way for the Hour of the Wolf instead of the Black victory if Daemon was in full charge of the war effort. As the story stands, though, I could agree the Winter Wolves fighting in the riverlands did play a pivotal role in helping Rhaenyra move to KL.

The Winter Wolves were crutial in the Riverlands theater and more importantly in taking with them most of the Green leadership and leave it.

 

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

A successsion crisis could avoid blossoming into civil war when there is one faction powerful enough to stop it. At Robert's death, no such faction apparently exists.

That it is explicitly because of the twincest, which is what we were talking about at the beginning.

Without that, even after Robert's death there would not be the factionalism we see in the books, most of the players would be on the same side.

[SaffronLady]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Counter to Margaery? Or enemy of Margaery and would no doubt try to blow the whole thing up as she did in canon?

Well, to quote your own words, such are the risks. Though this time, of playing the balans game.

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sansa's House alo bring in two other Houses who can also project their power over all the south.

Sansa is too young and JArryn too old for the Arryns to be meaningful, and House Tully needs royal support to hold the riverlands already, counting on them to hold the realm together is a tad too hopeful.

That said, a Stark-Arryn marriage (say, SR-Arya) could make this more pragmatic if Lysa could be persuaded to do something by this further connection.

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

On the one side you're Jaeharys was exercising his royal authority by fighting with hs troops and on the other you're arguing that fighting with your troops isn't exercising royal authority.

Authority is a construct with multiple dimensions. Just leading your men at the front helps, but it alone is not enough.

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

But wouldn't that again put Jaeharys on the same spot? The decision to call on the Great Council was explicitly done because neither faction would accept his final decision and would resort to war.

I'm not following you here. He's worried that would happen, but it didn't happen because he called the council first.

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

And how much the royal authority can be evaluated when you're dead. How can you exercize your authority then?

By playing the balance game and make sure the factions after your immediate demise have no better option than to execute your last will. What happens after that ... is beyond any man.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cersei ignores Tywin's designs for her once he's dead... Does that mean he had no authority?

Could she? Could she remove Kevan?

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Winter Wolves were crutial in the Riverlands theater and more importantly in taking with them most of the Green leadership and leave it.

Fine I'll leave this.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

That it is explicitly because of the twincest, which is what we were talking about at the beginning.

Are you sure that Cersei's bastards being fathered by any other man wouldn't have changed the result? You know, succession war?

[frenin]

39 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Well, to quote your own words, such are the risks. Though this time, of playing the balans game.

Indeed, i just happen to think marrying to Sansa offered a better bonus to the Baratheons than marrying Margaery did at the time.

Robert is not worried about his brothers and his brother's beef at the time was with Cersei not with his sons so bringing the Tyrells in would do little to solve any animosity.

 

 

42 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Sansa is too young and JArryn too old for the Arryns to be meaningful, and House Tully needs royal support to hold the riverlands already, counting on them to hold the realm together is a tad too hopeful.

That said, a Stark-Arryn marriage (say, SR-Arya) could make this more pragmatic if Lysa could be persuaded to do something by this further connection.

• Why her being young matters at all?
• Jon Arryn was old but we're repeated time and time again in AGOT that he was in perfect shape and he would still live a lot if not for the poisoning. And the Arryns are tied to the Starks by blood, how wouldn't they be meaningful?
• I think you're thinking on the Tullys of the past, Hoster and Edmure did a great job in establishing the power of House Tully post rebellion.
• No one had any reason to doubt Lysa's loyalty to her family.

 

46 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Authority is a construct with multiple dimensions. Just leading your men at the front helps, but it alone is not enough.

I agree entirely, it just seems you're just throwing around the word.

Just leading your men at the front is not enough... but it is the edge you gave to Jaeharys.

 

48 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm not following you here. He's worried that would happen, but it didn't happen because he called the council first.

He's not worried that would happen, he knows no one would accept his final decision, which is why he made the Realm take it in his stead.

 

49 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

By playing the balance game and make sure the factions after your immediate demise have no better option than to execute your last will. What happens after that ... is beyond any man.

But that is mostly beyond on the control of any man, especially if you do not have the time to prepare for your succesion or you die suddenly. It makes little sense because by simply dying you're creating a vacuum that can be filled in many ways if it's unexpected. And even when it is expected... shit still happens.

 

52 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Could she? Could she remove Kevan?

She could and did.

 

52 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Are you sure that Cersei's bastards being fathered by any other man wouldn't have changed the result? You know, succession war?

Unless that man happened to be a Lannister, i'm pretty sure, since it would be a tad impossible to prove.

[SaffronLady]

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert is not worried

Robert shouldn't have become king if he cannot worry about the big questions that keeps his son on the throne. IIRC it is general consensus Robert shouldn't have become king, you just happened to mention a very specific reason. But back on topic:

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why her being young matters at all?

Because the Stark-Arryn alliance sits on the relationship between JArryn and Ned, not their children. Once JA passes, the alliance breaks. Or if you make Lysa truly consider Cat her sister, until both women pass away.

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

And the Arryns are tied to the Starks by blood, how wouldn't they be meaningful?

By Tully blood. It has meaning, but being brothers-in-law of blood sisters is not the most secure way to maintain an alliance.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hoster and Edmure did a great job in establishing the power of House Tully post rebellion.

Really? As in old man Frey barters his girl for passage across the Twins, not just giving them a pass for the lord of his lord? Or is Hoster falling sick shaking his control over Walder Frey?

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

No one had any reason to doubt Lysa's loyalty to her family.

Turned out too late the reveal Lysa thinks only of her son as family. I could agree with the notion people expect Lysa's support when marrying Sansa, though. It's not like we readers could have known before the wot5k.

41 minutes ago, frenin said:

it is the edge you gave to Jaeharys.

No, it is a similarity I noted between an example you raised and the subject at hand.

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

He's not worried that would happen, he knows no one would accept his final decision, which is why he made the Realm take it in his stead.

I'd like a quote that supports your rather specific wording here.

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

especially if you do not have the time to prepare for your succesion or you die suddenly.

Preparing for the succession is something every ruler should have done. From day one.

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

It makes little sense because by simply dying you're creating a vacuum that can be filled in many ways if it's unexpected.

It makes equally little sense not to prepare for it just because a king could die unexpectedly.

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

She could and did.

Please tell me you're not referring to AFFC, when Kevan has not taken up a position that Cersei could remove him from.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Unless that man happened to be a Lannister, i'm pretty sure, since it would be a tad impossible to prove.

Cersei has already been caught in flagrante, though luckily the witness was dealt with. Why do you think the House of the other adulterer matters? If Cersei took a Connington lover and birthed a child with red hair, would it be a tad impossible to prove Robert is not the father?

[Dofs]

Not really an exactly 'unpopular' opinion but I believe a huge amount of the fanbase are confused why Catelyn has kidnapped Tyrion. I have seen a lot of discussions that refer to Catelyn taking Tyrion to punish him for what she thought was trying to kill Bran, when in fact that wasn't the reason for kidnapping at all.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Dofs

[Aldarion]

Unsullied and Dothraki are some of the worse armies in Planetos. Literally ANY army in Planetos that is not from their portion of Western Essos (so, Dothraki Sea + Slaver's Bay) can easily beat them in battle.

[SaffronLady]

10 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Unsullied and Dothraki are some of the worse armies in Planetos. Literally ANY army in Planetos that is not from their portion of Western Essos (so, Dothraki Sea + Slaver's Bay) can easily beat them in battle.

A pity the Dothraki would probably prevail against the Golden Company, if such a battle occurs, even without dragons. Because the horselords are Team Dany™.

[chrisdaw]

On 12/17/2023 at 5:01 AM, Aldarion said:

Unsullied and Dothraki are some of the worse armies in Planetos. Literally ANY army in Planetos that is not from their portion of Western Essos (so, Dothraki Sea + Slaver's Bay) can easily beat them in battle.

I don't agree. A conventional Westeros army are a pack of farmers with regular lives and so a lot to lose, they've got every reason to break in battle whereas the Unsullied and Dothraki are warriors who live for battle.

[Aldarion]

19 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't agree. A conventional Westeros army are a pack of farmers with regular lives and so a lot to lose, they've got every reason to break in battle whereas the Unsullied and Dothraki are warriors who live for battle.

Yeah, no, that is just wrong.

First, Westerosi soldiers are not farmers. In fact, literally nothing we see in the books supports the idea that majority of Westerosi soldiers are "a pack of farmers with regular lives and so a lot to lose". These are well-trained, well-equipped men with decent training in drill and organization, in no way inferior to actual medieval armies in discipline:

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-1-organization-and-manpower/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-2-tactics/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-3-weapons-and-equipment/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-4-conclusions-and-implications/

Second, Unsullied and Dothraki are overrated. Being a "warrior who lives for a battle" means little and less when you lack a brain and/or proper equipment for battle.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Jaehaerys and Alysanne are really crappy parents. Not too bad with their sons, but they handled the daughters so bad.

Saera was a spoiled brat, who did need discipline, but Jaehaerys just hardlining her was kind of shitty. 

Daella and Viserra was a crap situation. Why exactly does Daella need to be wed off that early? Considering the amount of kids they had, it's not that big of a deal to hold off on a marriage for five or so years. 

Sure, Viserra can be married off some time later, but why's it gotta be to some fat Northerner? Marrying her to Lord Manderly was stupid in that he already had a billion heirs, was fat and unhealthy, etc. If I was a teenage girl who was being married off, I sure as hell wouldn't want to marry an fat old dude with a million kids. 

 

On second thought, that might not be that unpopular. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Jaenara Belarys

[chrisdaw]

51 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Yeah, no, that is just wrong.

First, Westerosi soldiers are not farmers. In fact, literally nothing we see in the books supports the idea that majority of Westerosi soldiers are "a pack of farmers with regular lives and so a lot to lose". These are well-trained, well-equipped men with decent training in drill and organization, in no way inferior to actual medieval armies in discipline:

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-1-organization-and-manpower/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-2-tactics/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-3-weapons-and-equipment/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-4-conclusions-and-implications/

Second, Unsullied and Dothraki are overrated. Being a "warrior who lives for a battle" means little and less when you lack a brain and/or proper equipment for battle.

Yeah I disagree as it is literally in the Sworn Sword, that's one of the themes of the story.

[Jaenara Belarys]

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yeah I disagree as it is literally in the Sworn Sword, that's one of the themes of the story.

It could be argued that the Osgrey situation is the odd one out, since he has tiny domains, only a few villages, no real set of retainers...whereas Lady Rohanne shows up with six knights and squires, mounted crossbowmen, etc. Only 33 in total for her, but better trained and equipped than any of poor old Osgrey's. And she's hardly a rich lady compared to others we've seen.

[chrisdaw]

4 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

It could be argued that the Osgrey situation is the odd one out, since he has tiny domains, only a few villages, no real set of retainers...whereas Lady Rohanne shows up with six knights and squires, mounted crossbowmen, etc. Only 33 in total for her, but better trained and equipped than any of poor old Osgrey's. And she's hardly a rich lady compared to others we've seen.

And if she was up against it she'd have called in all available arms and the bulk of them would be like Osgrey's. Sure there's a tip of the spear, but when he gives us that Sworn Sword call to arms and training and writing that they took pot boys with stolen kitchen knives in the War of the Nine Penny Kings I doubt GRRM is setting up conventional Westeros armies as professional fighting forces.

[Jaenara Belarys]

12 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

And if she was up against it she'd have called in all available arms and the bulk of them would be like Osgrey's. Sure there's a tip of the spear, but when he gives us that Sworn Sword call to arms and training and writing that they took pot boys with stolen kitchen knives in the War of the Nine Penny Kings I doubt GRRM is setting up conventional Westeros armies as professional fighting forces.

Well, I don't think that Aldarion and I are trying to tell you that they're professional troops. They're more like a National Guard/territorial defense force that has alright training and equipment. They're semiprofessionals that have a job doing something else, but can be called up. 

[Gilbert Green]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, Aldarion said:

First, Westerosi soldiers are not farmers. In fact, literally nothing we see in the books supports the idea that majority of Westerosi soldiers are "a pack of farmers with regular lives and so a lot to lose". T

-- "Ser Bonifer raised a gloved hand. 'Any man who remains with me shall have a hide of land to work, a second hide when he takes a wife, a third at the birth of his first child.'"

Not saying Bonifer is not the exception rather than the rule, and I don't know about "majorities".  Just offering a piece of data for your consideration.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Alester Florent]

I feel it's worth noting that "professional soldier" and "wanting to be rewarded with farmland" are far from mutually exclusive. Most Westerosi smallfolk have farming backgrounds in their youth, and the majority of soldiers would probably happily retire from their dangerous profession once they have secured a means of support.

Roman legionaries of the late Republic and Empire were professionals, who were rewarded with farmland at the end of their term of service. Nowadays, the majority of professional soldiers serve for a number of years, then leave the military and find a new career. The number of "lifers" has always been relatively small.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Alester Florent