Sansa and Tyrion Annulment

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I've been mulling over the idea of Sansa or Tyrion, or both, seeking out an annulment. Many people brush it aside and assume it's impossible, or simply too difficult. I'm the silly, goofy type of person who believes there is a small possibility. It would, of course, be very challenging at this point in the story, which is why I think it is possible in the future. A shift in power could make a difference. But I'm interested in your thoughts here.

According to GRRM, neither Tyrion nor Sansa would need to be present to annul their marriage, but at least one must request it. Unless Tyrion manages to find out and somehow objects, Sansa shouldn't be faced with too many challenges (under normal circumstances, of course). Of course, the more power and influence you have, the easier it will be. With the aid of Littlefinger, or anyone else with more influence, it just might be possible. Depending on who is acting High Septon, bribery would be an option. Although, as of now, Littlefinger shows no interest in going for an annulment, and for sound reasons. As long as the Lannisters are still in power, Sansa will remain a wanted fugitive. So for now, he's relying on the death of Tyrion (so he says.)

Reasons for annulments:

• Non-consummation
• Marriage was forced
• Crazy scenario where Tysha is alive and makes an appearance and the "annulment" made by Tywin is proven to have not been legal

I'll say now, I think #2 would be turned down by The High Septon or Council, and #3 will probably never happen. So they'll simply have to rely on the first one.

Non-consummated marriages that were dissolved/annulled:

• Lancel and Amerei: Lancel joins the Warrior's Sons
• Baelor and Daena
• (am I forgetting any?)

Non-consummation is the main factor of their annulment. Of course, we all know that Tyrion and Sansa never consummated their marriage, and it was becoming common knowledge throughout the Red Keep. Proof of non-consummation is never suggested or hinted at. I would be surprised if a request for annulment was dismissed simply because a maiden's hymen is no longer intact, especially if she is not required to be present. I assume even Septons would be aware that a hymen could break from other activities, however difficult it may be. Basically, I think they would need more confirmation than that to rule it out. Note, non-consummation may not only be the ground for an annulment.

Let's take into account that even consummated marriages have either been annulled or requested an annulment:

• Tyrion and Tysha: annulled by Tywin, and against either of their wills (if their marriage was even legal)
• Daemon and Rhea: Turned down by the king, Daemon banished by Viserys
• Duncan and Jenny: requested by Aegon V, Duncan is forced to abdicate
• Renly plotting an annulment between Cersei and Robert

Some of these examples prove that power and influence doesn't always work out for an annulment. As for Littlefinger's plans, I was once saw a theory stating that Littlefinger may be planning to have to local religious authorities of the Vale declare Sansa as she was before her marriage to Tyrion. A maiden fit for marriage. (When the time is right, of course.) How feasible is this plan? There are other options of course. Is LF really waiting around for Tyrion to die, is he truly intending for Sansa to marry Harry, or is their betrothal all he really needs before his ultimate plans fall into place?

A few more questions, if you're interested in expanding the discussion.

• Will Sansa and Tyrion end the series a married couple?
• Will they end the series married, but separated?
• Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)
• Will they eventually get an annulment?

 

 

 

[csuszka1948]

I am pretty sure that Tysha will be the solution.

In one of his interviews, GRRM said that we will find out "where do whores go":

Q: First question, will we ever find out where whores go? I'm just asking because I want to go there.

[laughter]

GRRM: Yes, we will. We will find out.

-George R.R. Martin Skyping Croatian Fans (17:53)

It's pretty logical from a character development standpoint - Tyrion spends the entire ADWD wondering about Tysha and he can only 'move on' from his obsession if he meets her. The description of the Sailor's Wife in Braavos* fits Tysha pretty well, and she also has a golden haired daughter Lanna. 

 

Tyrion and Tysha definitely won't love each other (it's pretty impossible after what Tyrion has done and he became a bitter person), but his daughter might find love in her heart and they would probably try to re-validate (?) the marriage for the sake of their daughter.

This would invalidate the Sansa-Tyrion marriage, allowing Sansa to have a claim to Winterfell and Tyrion would also fulfill Tywin's nightmare (Tyrion "turning Casterly Rock into a whorehouse") by making Lanna Lady of Casterly Rock, which is absolutely something that I can see GRRM doing.

 

*which is coincidentally the same place where Dany's 'house with the red door' was, about which GRRM said there will be an important relevation. Tyrion and Dany will meet in TWOW and a trip to Braavos is quite possible.

Edited August 16, 2023 by csuszka1948

[LongRider]

35 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

• Will they end the series married, but separated?
• Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)

These are the two I see as the most plausible.  As for who would be the one to die?  That’s a tough one, so I’m not sure, but I would like to see Sansa live. 

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

So for now, he's relying on the death of Tyrion (so he says.)

I never thought I’d agree w/ Littlefinger in any way, shape or form. But here I’m rooting for him to be right. 

But trusting anything Littlefinger says is not a good idea. For instance, I wouldn’t put it past him to deliver Sansa to the Lannisters if push comes to shove - if he’s in trouble and sees such a move as beneficial or a way out of a bind. Nothing like this will happen imo, but this type of scenario is definitively something he could try if he felt was in his best interest/only option.

32 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

A few more questions, if you're interested in expanding the discussion.

• Will Sansa and Tyrion end the series a married couple?
  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NEVER NO WAY FUCK NO!
   
• Will they end the series married, but separated?
  I hope not.
   
• Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)
  Yes, Sansa will be a widow and Tyrion will be very dead. (Yeah, I know it’s wishful thinking)
   
• Will they eventually get an annulment?
  I can’t make up my mind on this. Have thought about it on and off many times over the years, and can’t reach a conclusion. Mostly b/c there’s still too much story left and also the fact that there aren’t clear rules for annulments, as you pointed out. It seems it is rare, and that it very much depends on the circumstances and who are all of those involved, from the couple (or one of them at least), to families, to who is the representative of the faith, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[SeanF]

The fact that Sansa was not a prisoner (unlikely to be disputed by Tyrion) is a ground for annulment.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

12 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am pretty sure that Tysha will be the solution.

In one of his interviews, GRRM said that we will find out "where do whores go":

Q: First question, will we ever find out where whores go? I'm just asking because I want to go there.

[laughter]

GRRM: Yes, we will. We will find out.

-George R.R. Martin Skyping Croatian Fans (17:53)

It's pretty logical from a character development standpoint - Tyrion spends the entire ADWD wondering about Tysha and he can only 'move on' from his obsession if he meets her. The description of the Sailor's Wife in Braavos* fits Tysha pretty well, and she also has a golden haired daughter Lanna. 

 

Tyrion and Tysha definitely won't love each other (it's pretty impossible after what Tyrion has done and he became a bitter person), but his daughter might find love in her heart and they would probably try to re-validate (?) the marriage for the sake of their daughter.

This would invalidate the Sansa-Tyrion marriage, allowing Sansa to have a claim to Winterfell and Tyrion would also fulfill Tywin's nightmare (Tyrion "turning Casterly Rock into a whorehouse") by making Lanna Lady of Casterly Rock, which is absolutely something that I can see GRRM doing.

 

*which is coincidentally the same place where Dany's 'house with the red door' was, about which GRRM said there will be an important relevation. Tyrion and Dany will meet in TWOW and a trip to Braavos is quite possible.

Whores go west to get Casterly ROCKED!

When you put it that way though, it does make sense. It would be poetic at least. ♥

@kissdbyfire

Quote

Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)
Yes, Sansa will be a widow and Tyrion will be very dead. (Yeah, I know it’s wishful thinking)

You should know I was definitely thinking this as I typed it out, but I wanted it to come off..."unbiased." I should change my username to @FreeSansa 

[csuszka1948]

I thi

3 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Whores go west to get Casterly ROCKED!

When you put it that way though, it does make sense. It would be poetic at least. ♥

 

 

 

Yes, it's poetic and a fitting end to Tywin's legacy.

GRRM made it clear in the text that only the High Septon can set the marriage aside even if it's unconsummated, and I don't think the HS would meet Sansa and perform it:

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"
"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is." -ASOS, Tyrion IV

I am pretty sure that he has the whole setup with Robb's will excluding Sansa and the difficulty of annuling the marriage to engineer a succession crisis in House Stark (probably between Jon - backed by wildlings and Northerners - and Sansa backed by Valemen) that LF will try (and fail) to exploit and at the end solve it with the Tyrion-Tysha (re)marriage. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

Another option - that is probably more preferred by the commenters above - is Tyrion taking the Black:

Tyrion stabbed listlessly at a greasy grey sausage, wishing it were his sister. It is bloody cold on the Wall, but at least I would be shut of Cersei. He did not think he would make much of a ranger, but the Night's Watch needed clever men as well as strong ones. Lord Commander Mormont had said as much, when Tyrion had visited Castle Black. There are those inconvenient vows, though. It would mean the end of his marriage and whatever claim he might ever have made for Casterly Rock, but he did not seem destined to enjoy either in any case. And he seemed to recall that there was a brothel in a nearby village. -ASOS, Tyrion X

[Hugorfonics]

Yeah, it's probably too difficult. So we got this

Quote

Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."

Whatever the hell a council of faith is, idk. Could it feasibly be some on hand Vale divorce lawyers? Absolutely, but it's probably not. Besides LF just says Tyrions dead and Sansa believes him, it's not the best lie because there's a world wide bounty on his head and Alaynes friends with a gossip, but Petyrs not the best liar. Just a consistent one.

Anyway, could the HS be bribed? No. He can hardly be talked to or they'll wind up like Cersei. I think it's just best to leave him out of as many conversations as they can.

But totally Alaynes Hardying can bring up Tysha and maybe track that Septon down who probably (but not definitely) did not get a trained seal or a council of trained seals to annul Tyrion, but whats that going to even do? Are they gonna separate? Make uncomfortable smalltalk about peas over dinner? Sansa has a thousand reasons to not marry Harry, is Tyrion a big one? Honestly he's kind of a small one. 

Also an annulment is a two sided thing, Tyrion can totally pull like a Catherine of Aragon and be like "nope". It's all very speculative, I'm sure Tyrions upset she used him which led to all of his travesties but he also does seem to care about her and the idea of him "rescuing" her/ burning down the Vale seems like a possibility where this storyline goes. Also theres the uncomfortable fact that he's probably going to be working on putting a potential polygamist on the throne, which if it drifted down one class could put a whole damper on the your already married bit. Although for both Tyrion and Sansas Lannindyng, Hardannnister...

5 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)

I'm like 99% sure Sansas gonna make it. I'm 50/50 with Tyrion 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I kind of assumed Tyrion being a fugitive would make it easy for Sansa to get the marriage annulled, am I wrong? 

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I kind of assumed Tyrion being a fugitive would make it easy for Sansa to get the marriage annulled, am I wrong? 

This seems to make sense

He was sentenced to be killed or sent to nights watch, either would end a marriage!

 

That said sansa herself would stand trial next

[Tradecraft]

I wrote on this a while back. 

Sansa cannot get an annulment from Tyrion. 

It's possible that one could interpret Sansa's Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound. 

Tragically, she cannot prove she is a virgin anymore if she was examined by a Septa of the Faith (or anyone).

The marriage will stand. 

[Mourning Star]

Everybody is worried about Tyrion's claim to Winterfell through Sansa, but I predict Sansa will end up as the ruling Lady of Casterly Rock.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

He was sentenced to be killed or sent to nights watch, either would end a marriage!

Oh that's interesting. I mean this general line I don't think holds weight, just because somebody is an outlaw or wanted does not make them single, in fact Tyrion reflects just on that 

Quote

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

But yea what happens to the wives of men sent to the NW? If they remarry are their new kids still legally bastards? Can smallfolk get annulled? Seems unlikely but I suppose why not.

 

33 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Everybody is worried about Tyrion's claim to Winterfell through Sansa, but I predict Sansa will end up as the ruling Lady of Casterly Rock.

Yea! A reverse Viking! I think that's highly likely. Way more likely then Tyrion taking the North imo. Sansas story I think can lead to so many places, so even though shes just like a minor piece she can really fit an complete like any puzzle. (North, RL, Vale, KL, the West). Or frankly, all the puzzles 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Hugorfonics

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I wrote on this a while back. 

Sansa cannot get an annulment from Tyrion. 

It's possible that one could interpret Sansa's Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound. 

Tragically, she cannot prove she is a virgin anymore if she was examined by a Septa of the Faith (or anyone).

The marriage will stand. 

So, when you say, “it’s possible that one could interpret Sansa’s Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound” do you actually mean that you interpret it that way? 

[astarkchoice]

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh that's interesting. I mean this general line I don't think holds weight, just because somebody is an outlaw or wanted does not make them single, in fact Tyrion reflects just on that 

 

Cool 

Interesting point then shes potr tialy  got claims then to winterfell, riverrun and casterly rock!

[LongRider]

53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, when you say, “it’s possible that one could interpret Sansa’s Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound” do you actually mean that you interpret it that way? 

Why yes, the thread he mentioned is about his theory of the Hound raping Sansa, so of course that what it means. 

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I wrote on this a while back. 

Sansa cannot get an annulment from Tyrion. 

It's possible that one could interpret Sansa's Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound. 

Tragically, she cannot prove she is a virgin anymore if she was examined by a Septa of the Faith (or anyone).

The marriage will stand. 

Does nonconsummation even require such an "examination"? If both parties attest that the marriage was not consummated, or one party does and the other isn't around to answer, that may be sufficient depending on the political circumstances.

Not to mention that the whole concept of such an examination is BS anyway, but I would hope everyone here knows that.

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Why yes, the thread he mentioned is about his theory of the Hound raping Sansa, so of course that what it means. 

I never checked… I guess ‘older and wiser’ is finally kicking in! 

[Tradecraft]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, when you say, “it’s possible that one could interpret Sansa’s Battle of the Blackwater POV chapter (where she is confronted by the Hound) to mean she was violated by the Hound” do you actually mean that you interpret it that way? 

I believe there is something wrong with that POV chapter. I believe there is a literal interpretation (where Sansa remains a virgin at the end of the POV) and another interpretation (mine) where she does not. 

1. Do I want it to be true? No. 

2. Is it my analysis? Yes, but I may be wrong. I post here to get feedback and constructive criticism.