Sansa and Tyrion Annulment

[Tradecraft]

31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I never checked… I guess ‘older and wiser’ is finally kicking in! 

[LongRider]

Enough about Sansa rape and her virginity.  Move on.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Does nonconsummation even require such an "examination"? If both parties attest that the marriage was not consummated, or one party does and the other isn't around to answer, that may be sufficient depending on the political circumstances.

Not to mention that the whole concept of such an examination is BS anyway, but I would hope everyone here knows that.

Does anyone happen to know if vag examinations are conducted for highborn ladies before marriage in ASOIAF? I don't recall that ever being a thing in this series. I'm trying to recall each time a woman's maidenhead was even examined in the books. We don't hear of it often and each time it is mentioned it's treated as an abnormality, and only for special cases.

• Brienne examined by Qyburn
• Cersei claims she had Margaery examined
• Pycelle possibly examined Sansa during his gross physical

I'd like to add, Margaery's examinations and the moon tea was proclaimed to be insufficient evidence by the High Sparrow.

21 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

The examination is bogus in 2023 USA. But unfortunately, they're in 300 AC Westeros. 

The examination can tell if the hymen is intact. If the hymen is in tact, it proves the girl is (vaginal) virgin. Obviously, you can break your hymen horseback riding or other activities (etc.). 

 

Tyrion can request the test. Sansa (if I am right) won't request a test. The Lannisters could request a test (though Idk why they would, unless Sansa was pregnant with Tyrion as the alleged father).

 

However, anyone who might want to marry Sansa might want to request the test.  And that could be how this thing blows up. 

Tyrion has no reason to believe that her hymen isn't intact. If anything, he's going to assume it still is. And her hymen probably still is intact, we have no reason to believe otherwise. (Sorry, but I'm not going to entertain the rape theory.) In real life, it's a lot more difficult to break a hymen without actual penetration. But apparently in GRRM's world, it can be easily broken by a mere horse ride. If that's the case, every highborn maiden and every maiden who has ever ridden a horse would probably have broken hymens.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Tradecraft]

5 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Does anyone happen to know if vag examinations are conducted for highborn ladies before marriage in ASOIAF? I don't recall that ever being a thing in this series. I'm trying to recall each time a woman's maidenhead was even examined in the books. We don't hear of it often and each time it is mentioned it's treated as an abnormality, and only for special cases.

• Brienne examined by Qyburn
• Cersei claims she had Margaery examined
• Pycelle possibly examined Sansa during his gross physical

Tyrion has no reason to believe that her hymen isn't intact. If anything, he's going to assume it still is. And her hymen probably still is intact, we have no reason to believe otherwise. (Sorry, but I'm not going to entertain the rape theory.) In real life, it's a lot more difficult to break a hymen without actual penetration. But apparently in GRRM's world, it can be easily broken by a mere horse ride. If that's the case, every highborn maiden and every maiden who has ever ridden a horse would probably have broken hymens.

It happens without sex. It's not unheard of. Not an expert. 

But what I have laid our would have serious implications for the plot. 

If true, Sansa will never be able to remarry*. 

 

*Northmen would marry her in a heartbeat. The Dornish probably don't care about virginity either. Nor do the Ironborn. 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

10 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

It happens without sex. It's not unheard of. Not an expert. 

But what I have laid our would have serious implications for the plot. 

If true, Sansa will never be able to remarry*. 

 

*Northmen would marry her in a heartbeat. The Dornish probably don't care about virginity either. Nor do the Ironborn. 

 

Your theory only has serious implications to the plot if it's true, and you're the only one who believes it here. We have evidence that a broken hymen is insufficient evidence of sexual intercourse, which means that even in Westeros people are aware that a hymen can break from non-sexual activities. A broken hymen wouldn't be a deal breaker for an annulment. They would need more evidence. Did anyone witness the consummation? Did anyone overhear sexual activities? Was there any evidence of consummation on the bed sheets? Stuff like that.

I'm gonna stop here though, because I don't want to fill the thread over this one disagreement.  

Edited August 17, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

It happens without sex. It's not unheard of. Not an expert. 

But what I have laid our would have serious implications for the plot. 

If true, Sansa will never be able to remarry*. 

 

*Northmen would marry her in a heartbeat. The Dornish probably don't care about virginity either. Nor do the Ironborn. 

 

Nah, that’s bollocks. Even if “Not a Virgin” (Madonna voice), Sansa is still a stunning beauty and a Stark; she’d have candidates queueing up to marry her. 
But the Hound never raped her as you propose, so the point is moot. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Cool 

Interesting point then shes potr tialy  got claims then to winterfell, riverrun and casterly rock!

And the Vale lol

[Tradecraft]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nah, that’s bollocks. Even if “Not a Virgin” (Madonna voice), Sansa is still a stunning beauty and a Stark; she’d have candidates queueing up to marry her. 
But the Hound never raped her as you propose, so the point is moot. 

I provided my evidence and I let people decide for themselves. 

[Alester Florent]

39 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Your theory only has serious implications to the plot if it's true, and you're the only one who believes it here. We have evidence that a broken hymen is insufficient evidence of sexual intercourse, which means that even in Westeros people are aware that a hymen can break from non-sexual activities. A broken hymen wouldn't be a deal breaker for an annulment. They would need more evidence. Did anyone witness the consummation? Did anyone overhear sexual activities? Was there any evidence of consummation on the bed sheets? Stuff like that.

I'm gonna stop here though, because I don't want to fill the thread over this one disagreement.  

If it comes down to the legalities, there is already sworn testimony from Shae that the marriage was never consummated, from Tyrion's treason trial.

The whole "must physically prove she's a virgin" thing is kind of grossing me out, to be honest, and it can't be the evidence on which an annulment for nonconsummation turns even if such examinations are routinely practised in Westeros (which, as per Ser Arthurs Dawn above, I'm not sure they are). After all, a widow who remarries would be expected not to be a virgin (Margaery excepted!) but the new marriage could still be annulled for failure to consummate, so an examination would prove nothing.

Indeed, an obvious counterexample to the principle is the annulment of Amerei and Lancel's marriage. Everyone knows she's not a virgin and that presents no obstacle to the annulment for nonconsummation.

The process will bow to the political realities. Assuming the High Septon has to get involved at all and it can't be handled locally, Sweetrobin would write to him saying "Sansa wants to annul her marriage for nonconsummation and I, as LP of the Vale, believe this is warranted" and the High Septon would probably just agree. If he orders an examination, Littlefinger will say "not on your life, mate" and the HS is faced with the proposition of falling out with arguably the most powerful man in Westeros (who, unlike Cersei, he has no meaningful power over) for the sake of his looking up a woman's hoo-ha to not-really-prove something everyone already knows anyway. It seems more likely he'll just agree.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Alester Florent

[LongRider]

As long as Sansa is wanted for regicide, an annulment is not going to happen.  If she can get absolved of the crime while Tyrion is still wanted for the crime, seems like an annulment might be easier.  Don't foresee an easy resolution for ending the marriage though.  

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by LongRider

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

I provided my evidence and I let people decide for themselves. 

Actually, you didn’t. Not even close imo. I checked that thread you linked - I suppose older and wiser will come at some point. 
You pasted a bunch of quotes from that scene, and then made a list of what you thought certain things meant/ should be interpreted. 
A couple of examples to illustrate my point.

You say Sansa is cold because it was her dress that was torn, despite the author clearly spelling out that the Hound’s KG cloak is on the floor, torn. 

You say that when Sansa feels blood and something else that wasn’t blood on her hand, it is ‘male residues’ that she feels. However, that bit is, again, very clearly described as Sansa cupping the Hound’s cheek in her hand. How did his ‘male residues’ end up on his own face? I mean, what she feels that isn’t blood is very obviously the Hound’s tears. Seriously, it’s painfully evident. 
 

Not to mention you seem to have forgotten all about this scene here:

ASoS, Arya XIII

As still as stone she stood. "I . . . I was only . . ."

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."

[Tradecraft]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LongRider]

If GRRM wanted a rape scene, there would be no doubt about it.  Also, the story would take a way different turn than it has.  Wishcasting and wanting it to be true is not at all convincing.  

[Nevets]

The way Martin writes his characters' stories, if Sansa wants an annulment so she can remarry, she will probably have a difficult time getting one.  Martin never makes things easy for his protagonists.  Antagonists get what they want, protagonists have to work for it.  On the other hand, if Sansa wishes to stay married so she can't be made to remarry, her marriage may just vanish into thin air.

The High Sparrow isn't like most High Septons.  I doubt he will be amenable to political pressure, and certainly not to bribery.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

The way Martin writes his characters' stories, if Sansa wants an annulment so she can remarry, she will probably have a difficult time getting one.  Martin never makes things easy for his protagonists.  Antagonists get what they want, protagonists have to work for it.  On the other hand, if Sansa wishes to stay married so she can't be made to remarry, her marriage may just vanish into thin air.

The High Sparrow isn't like most High Septons.  I doubt he will be amenable to political pressure, and certainly not to bribery.

I don't think it will be easy for her either, and neither do I think it will be any time soon. I suppose I should have specified that. And as for bribery, I had a High Septon in mind for that (if it happened to be someone weak-willed or greedy), because I'm assuming the Faith Militant will eventually be overthrown. I simply think it will be more likely that George releases them from their marriage at the end. Whether that be an annulment, one widowed, or any other ideas you or anyone else has.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I don't think it will be easy for her either, and neither do I think it will be any time soon. I suppose I should have specified that. And as for bribery, I had a High Septon in mind for that (if it happened to be someone weak-willed or greedy), because I'm assuming the Faith Militant will eventually be overthrown. I simply think it will be more likely that George releases them from their marriage at the end. Whether that be an annulment, one widowed, or any other ideas you or anyone else has.

I suspect by the end she will either have her marriage set aside or remain married to Tyrion in a sort of political partnership (Hillary and Bill kind of thing).  If she does get it set aside it will likely involve political maneuvering, the kind of stuff she's learning from Littlefinger and general observation.  Having it undone by a Council of Faith is a possibility.  My guess is that the council is whatever Martin thinks is best for his story.

For right now, I see her having little interest in remarriage, especially to someone chosen for her.  She suspects any marriage will be for her claim on Winterfell, and she is probably not wrong there.  If pressed, I can easily imagine her dragging her feet on the issue.

As for remaining married in the end it would require Tyrion pulling his head out of his ass and becoming a decent person again, which is actually a possibility.  But I think for right now she will use her marriage as a blocking mechanism to keep from being pressured into a marriage she doesn't want.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

But I think for right now she will use her marriage as a blocking mechanism to keep from being pressured into a marriage she doesn't want.

Sansa can use her forced marriage to Tyrion to block being married to someone else, but Alayne can’t. That of course would bring a whole different set of issues b/c then the 2nd marriage would be threatened by her true identity being officially revealed. There are many open options regarding Sansa’s marital status, and not by chance imo.

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sansa can use her forced marriage to Tyrion to block being married to someone else, but Alayne can’t. That of course would bring a whole different set of issues b/c then the 2nd marriage would be threatened by her true identity being officially revealed. There are many open options regarding Sansa’s marital status, and not by chance imo.

Alayne is unlikely to have anyone interested in marriage for her claim, or any other reason, I expect.  For that matter, the whole business of obtaining an annulment is effectively academic for now, as she can't do that as Alayne either.  Even the proposed marriage with Harry is predicated on her real identity being revealed.

And I don't see anything regarding Tysha as working either.  I'm pretty sure that marriage was never valid in the first place.  There were lots of irregularities, and I can't see Tywin shopping Tyrion as a potential match if there was even the possibility of the Tysha marriage being an issue.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Alayne is unlikely to have anyone interested in marriage for her claim, or any other reason, I expect.  For that matter, the whole business of obtaining an annulment is effectively academic for now, as she can't do that as Alayne either.  Even the proposed marriage with Harry is predicated on her real identity being revealed.

I wonder how many people who have been in contact w/ her actually believe she is ‘Alayne’. Regardless though, her value as a Stark bride only exists if she is officially recognised as Sansa Stark. 

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

And I don't see anything regarding Tysha as working either.  I'm pretty sure that marriage was never valid in the first place.  There were lots of irregularities, and I can't see Tywin shopping Tyrion as a potential match if there was even the possibility of the Tysha marriage being an issue.

Agree. 

[SeanF]

If Sansa persuades Dany to have Tyrion executed, then the problem is solved.