Renly was never going to succeed as king

[Alester Florent]

It doesn't really seem that anyone cares that much about any of the claimant Kings outside their own homelands. Stannis has no support outside the Blackwater and Stormlands. Nobody has any affection for Joff outside the Crownlands and Westerlands. Balon and Euron have no support outside the Iron Islands. Robb does acquire the support of the Riverlords, but that was after he appeared as their saviour and their hands were somewhat forced. Dorne has no love for any of them. We know that at least some of the Vale lords wanted to back Robb at least before he declared himself king, but that is largely because of Ned rather than Robb personally.

If anything, Renly is the exception among the claimant kings because he manages to pick up active support from outside his own family holdings purely on strength of personality.

[Minsc]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:08 AM, sweetsunray said:

Charisma is irrelevant in a feudal society with ruling being based primarily on birth right and birth order.

Nah, charisma is probably more important in a feudal society than birth right and birth order.  If one is an unlikable dick than individuals have no problem disposing you even if you are so-called rightful king by birth order.  The History of the English Monarchy is full of examples of birth order and right not being important in determining who followed who as king and efforts to usurp unpopular kings.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

Nah, charisma is probably more important in a feudal society than birth right and birth order.  If one is an unlikable dick than individuals have no problem disposing you even if you are so-called rightful king by birth order.  The History of the English Monarchy is full of examples of birth order and right not being important in determining who followed who as king and efforts to usurp unpopular kings.

The Renly story is still very much bad writing and a kind of unbelievable scenario in this world.

The guy wants to be king by shoving three males with better claims aside - Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis - and apparently a lot of honorable and reasonable men are all for that kind of treason. That is not something that should fly in Westeros where succession by primogeniture is actually much more important than in many real world medieval monarchies. Primogeniture rules this world since time immemorial, for thousands and thousands of years. Renly is the first and only member of a royal family in Westerosi history who pulled such a stunt - to our knowledge. We do see eldest uncles try something like that with Euron, etc. But Renly is like Aeron wanting to be king instead of Euron, Victarion, Asha, and Theon.

Renly himself is a guy barely twenty years old who has never done anything impressive or important in his life. Why would (m)any noblemen love him? There is no real/good answer to this. In fact, it is even hard to imagine that the Stormlords would back him. They were Robert's men, first and foremost, but Renly wanted to usurp the throne of Robert's children. How silly this is as a workable scenario you can grasp if you imagine King Robb moving the capital of his united Trident-North kingdom to Harrenhal or Riverrun, say, while granting Winterfell as a hereditary seat to his youngest brother Rickon. Fifteen years later Robb dies after having left three children and Rickon decides he should be king of Robb's kingdom now. Would any sane Northman or Northern lord rally behind Rickon's banner against the trueborn children of the heroic Young Wolf, two sons, one daughter? I don't think so.

Yet we have to suffer and accept that Robert's old lords many of whom might have fought with him in the Rebellion and been his friends in his youth and later after he took the throne would abandon his children for the sake of Renly's ambitions? That is a stretch. George could have made sense of that if he had actually developed the Stormlords more - if he had made it clear that there was real tension and perhaps even open hatred and blood feuds between Renly and the Lannisters and their respective bannermen. But we don't get that. So the fact that any Stormlord would actually send men to Renly to help him steal Joff's crown while they have no reason to doubt he is Robert's son is ludicrous.

With the Reach lords it is even harder to swallow.

Also, the notion of Stannis being unpopular and not well-liked is also a stretch. The guy isn't a prince and not much of a proper lord. He runs Robert's fleet, so the only people who know him well would be people he interacts with in that capacity ... so how did Stannis get the opportunity to get unpopular with many people if he never did any proper ruling on a grand(er) scale? Stannis is also no tourney knight guy, nobody who liked to attend feasts and stuff, so his actual interactions with his fellow noblemen should have been pretty limited.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Lord Varys

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy wants to be king by shoving three males with better claims aside - Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis - and apparently a lot of honorable and reasonable men are all for that kind of treason.

Assuming that Cersei’s children are legitimate, Myrcella would come before Stannis in the line of succession, no?

Edited September 20, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Assuming that Cersei’s children are legitimate, Myrcella would come before Stannis in the line of succession, no?

We don't really know.

But it is noteworthy that Myrcella is viewed as Tommen's heir by pretty much anybody. Of course, that is after Stannis and Renly are out of the picture. But it doesn't seem that many people viewed Stannis as next in line after Tommen.

[Odej]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, the notion of Stannis being unpopular and not well-liked is also a stretch. The guy isn't a prince and not much of a proper lord. He runs Robert's fleet, so the only people who know him well would be people he interacts with in that capacity ... so how did Stannis get the opportunity to get unpopular with many people if he never did any proper ruling on a grand(er) scale? Stannis is also no tourney knight guy, nobody who liked to attend feasts and stuff, so his actual interactions with his fellow noblemen should have been pretty limited.

Perhaps this is exactly why Stannis is unloved. Most of the nobles known and loved by the people and the nobility are those who participate in events such as tournaments, banquets, balls and have the flair and charm necessary to arouse people's affection at these events. Sociable people with some charisma, which is not the case with Stannis. He was probably not a regular at these events and when he did go he behaved like... Stannis. He is a competent military man and he apparently manages his domains well, but most of the people who follow him seem to do so driven above all by duty, not by affection. And since none of his brothers, who were loved by the crowd, liked him it's natural that people jumped on the bandwagon.

A golden opportunity for Stannis to gain people's heart was during Balon's Rebellion. The guy commanded thousands of soldiers and ships and simply defeated the ironborn at sea. It would fill anyone who was part of such a victory with pride and a sense of devotion if their commander had any tact. I think Stannis is in some ways similar to Aegon III. From what we know, Aegon was a competent ruler, but was cold and distant. He never worried about winning the love of his subjects and it was this detail that made all the difference in the people's feelings towards him. Aegon is not remembered fondly, however good and peaceful his reign was. In the end, people don't just want bread, they want circuses too.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Odej

[Frey family reunion]

On 9/10/2023 at 2:22 AM, Lord Varys said:

Following Robert's 'I'm the guy with the biggest army/weapon' precedent would have not only set a very bad example for Renly's own heirs ('If daddy wasn't the oldest brother why the hell should I defer to my eldest brother - especially if he is named 'Loras'!?) but also the Realm at large.

We could expect that the secessionist movements would only continue under a 'King Renly' unless he actually beat them into total submission.

Nah.  Jaheaerys, Alysanne, Maekar, Aegon V, Viserys II, none of these caused sucession crisis with the rest of Westeros.  Renly's selling point would be the Lannister's unpopularity with much of the realm.  Joffrey was just the puppet of his mother and grandfather, ect. ect.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, the notion of Stannis being unpopular and not well-liked is also a stretch. The guy isn't a prince and not much of a proper lord. He runs Robert's fleet, so the only people who know him well would be people he interacts with in that capacity ... so how did Stannis get the opportunity to get unpopular with many people if he never did any proper ruling on a grand(er) scale? Stannis is also no tourney knight guy, nobody who liked to attend feasts and stuff, so his actual interactions with his fellow noblemen should have been pretty limited.

Stannis is upopular because he's widely known to hold a grudge like Khomeini, to quote Jerry Seinfeld.

He's unpopular with the Reach lords because they know he's going to hold the Siege of Storm's End against them.  Renly on the other hand reached out to them and put them at ease that he would give them preferential treatment as King.

Then Stannis being away from Storm's End hurt his standing with the Stormlords.

Which is why Renly had so much support from the Reach and the Stormlands, which is a pretty powerful alliance, one that Stannis could never hope to match.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

48 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Stannis is upopular because he's widely known to hold a grudge like Khomeini, to quote Jerry Seinfeld.

I think the reason is much more straightforward; he doesn't participate in the traditional court lifestyle with banquets and tourneys, and is just not good at schmoozing in general.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think the reason is much more straightforward; he doesn't participate in the traditional court lifestyle with banquets and tourneys, and is just not good at schmoozing in general.

I think it's that and that he holds grudges and has no doubt indelicately expressed strong negative opinions about many of the realm's lords at some point or another. 

[sifth]

I often wonder how things would have been if Ned and Renly ruled together. I think both would have balanced each other out pretty well.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Odej said:

Perhaps this is exactly why Stannis is unloved. Most of the nobles known and loved by the people and the nobility are those who participate in events such as tournaments, banquets, balls and have the flair and charm necessary to arouse people's affection at these events. Sociable people with some charisma, which is not the case with Stannis. He was probably not a regular at these events and when he did go he behaved like... Stannis. He is a competent military man and he apparently manages his domains well, but most of the people who follow him seem to do so driven above all by duty, not by affection. And since none of his brothers, who were loved by the crowd, liked him it's natural that people jumped on the bandwagon.

That would make Stannis more a neutral kind of person - not loved, not popular, but also not unpopular. To be unpopular as a lord you actually have to do things that make you unpopular.

Stannis remains the eldest brother of the king, i.e. a guy whose favor people would still try to seek. He is a very important figure. For the nobility and other people seeking royal favor to drop him he has to do very unpleasant things indeed.

14 hours ago, Odej said:

A golden opportunity for Stannis to gain people's heart was during Balon's Rebellion. The guy commanded thousands of soldiers and ships and simply defeated the ironborn at sea. It would fill anyone who was part of such a victory with pride and a sense of devotion if their commander had any tact.

Indeed, the victory itself should have made him popular with his men. And it may even have happened. Stannis could steal Robert's royal fleet and convince the men to attack KL and King Joffrey. They didn't pull an Aurane Waters on him.

14 hours ago, Odej said:

I think Stannis is in some ways similar to Aegon III. From what we know, Aegon was a competent ruler, but was cold and distant. He never worried about winning the love of his subjects and it was this detail that made all the difference in the people's feelings towards him. Aegon is not remembered fondly, however good and peaceful his reign was. In the end, people don't just want bread, they want circuses too.

Aegon III was a king who ruled and pissed people off directly. Stannis is not a king when he becomes unpopular and merely the lord of a very small island domain - whose lords and bannermen actually stick to him during his rebellion rather than deciding to ditch the prick because he is unpopular.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nah.  Jaheaerys, Alysanne, Maekar, Aegon V, Viserys II, none of these caused sucession crisis with the rest of Westeros.  Renly's selling point would be the Lannister's unpopularity with much of the realm.  Joffrey was just the puppet of his mother and grandfather, ect. ect.

That is also not very convincing. Again, Renly's own power base, the Stormlords, are Robert Baratheon's men. And Joff is his son as far as they know. So them preferring Renly as king is hard to swallow, especially as there is no indication the Stormlords had issue with Robert's queen or her family. Renly had some issues, but not the Stormlords. Which we also can draw from the simple fact that many Stormlords actually play it safe and back Joff and other pretenders (Estermonts, Swanns, etc.).

The notion that Renly as a Baratheon should be particularly popular in the Reach with Robert as a brother (and a Florent sister-in-law) is also a stretch. Why should the Lannisters be unpopular in the Reach but the Baratheons popular? They were Targaryen loyalists and in the end Robert's Rebellion got the Targaryens killed. The Lannisters just jumped their bandwagon in the last moment.

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Stannis is upopular because he's widely known to hold a grudge like Khomeini, to quote Jerry Seinfeld.

He's unpopular with the Reach lords because they know he's going to hold the Siege of Storm's End against them.  Renly on the other hand reached out to them and put them at ease that he would give them preferential treatment as King.

Then Stannis being away from Storm's End hurt his standing with the Stormlords.

Which is why Renly had so much support from the Reach and the Stormlands, which is a pretty powerful alliance, one that Stannis could never hope to match.

Let us not confuse things. We are not really talking Renly vs. Stannis. We are talking Renly vs. Robert's children and Stannis.

I get why the Reach lords might prefer King Renly over King Stannis ... if those were the only options. Although we also have no textual evidence that Tyrells or any Reach lords for that matter actually feared Stannis' rise to the throne and/or his vengeance. Nor does it make much sense that the Reach lords in total would jump at the Renly idea even if the Tyrells were all for it.

That the Stormlords don't back Stannis is okay. That they back Renly against Robert's sons not so much.

8 hours ago, Ran said:

I think it's that and that he holds grudges and has no doubt indelicately expressed strong negative opinions about many of the realm's lords at some point or another. 

That is, unfortunately, just conjecture.

[Lee-Sensei]

Stannis and Joffrey aren't well loved by the masses and once the incest is revealed, he's only really jumping over Stannis, since Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are bastards with no claim. Charisma matters a lot to people when it comes to evaluating their leaders and Renly had it. He was also very forgiving.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Stannis and Joffrey aren't well loved by the masses and once the incest is revealed, he's only really jumping over Stannis, since Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are bastards with no claim. Charisma matters a lot to people when it comes to evaluating their leaders and Renly had it. He was also very forgiving.

Joffrey is never really unpopular. People blame Tyrion for the misrule, not the beautiful boy with the golden hair.

You still don't understand that Stannis saying something doesn't equal anyone believing it. As far as the world is concerned Cersei's children remain Robert's children even after Stannis wrote his letters. Renly himself makes it clear that he doesn't buy Stannis' story. He doesn't care if he pushes aside Robert's trueborn children or Cersei's bastards.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 hours ago, sifth said:

I often wonder how things would have been if Ned and Renly ruled together. I think both would have balanced each other out pretty well.

Stannis would probably still make a move for the throne, although his chances of success would likely be slim to none.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Stannis would probably still make a move for the throne, although his chances of success would likely be slim to none.

Unless he uses shadow babies to kill Ned and Renly.

[astarkchoice]

Dumno sometimes we forget feusalosm is a little like warlordism with pretend airs, might makes right!

Renly had most of the stormlords on his side , stormsend and the might of the reach. Renly as we know was charming and good with all the high society stuff needed but  we forget the stability that would have come with renlys reign built in.

The shadowbaby would have had to fail thus renly would have been rid of stan the man, dragonstone ripe for he taking as the non fire worshipping guys murder the fanatics.

Dorne would have been readily compliant as neither doran or the viper never had any serious issues with the reach  or renly and theyd want to refocus their long term revenge plans on the now humbled lannisters

Then we add in renly would probably have gotten rid of the destabilzing  likes of LF and varys , the queen of thorns would be there  to advise and best of all  willas is still unmarried to secure the realm further!!! 

The ironborn might still attack  the north but who cares ...for renly it would have been leverage to make robb bend the knee (in private  of course as he can keep his crown but pay tithes ) the redwyne and royal fleets can now catch the pirates by suprise mid north invasion and smash them back to compliance.

The westerlands could be prickly under a humbled  tywin but hes old , robb has smashed his army good and we can assume lost  again to renly as he tried to stop  the kl siege, unkown to tywin will soon have the dornish plotting to punish him and  of course robb and the riverlands may still want to punish him more...so hes 0 theat to renlys rule.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Joffrey is never really unpopular. People blame Tyrion for the misrule, not the beautiful boy with the golden hair.

You still don't understand that Stannis saying something doesn't equal anyone believing it. As far as the world is concerned Cersei's children remain Robert's children even after Stannis wrote his letters. Renly himself makes it clear that he doesn't buy Stannis' story. He doesn't care if he pushes aside Robert's trueborn children or Cersei's bastards.

Joffrey gets plenty of hate although Tyrion was certainly blamed too.

Quote

“A tumult of sound drowned his last words, a rolling thunder of rage and fear and hatred that engulfed them from all sides. “Bastard!” someone screamed at Joffrey, “bastard monster.” Other voices flung calls of “Whore” and “Brotherfucker” at the queen, while Tyrion was pelted with shouts of “Freak” and “Halfman.” Mixed in with the abuse, he heard a few cries of “Justice” and “Robb, King Robb, the Young Wolf,” of “Stannis!” and even “Renly!” From both sides of the street, the crowd surged against the spear shafts while the gold cloaks struggled to hold the line. Stones and dung and fouler things whistled overhead. “Feed us!” a woman shrieked. “Bread!” boomed a man behind her. “We want bread, bastard!” In a heartbeat, a thousand voices took up the chant. King Joffrey and King Robb and King Stannis were forgotten, and King Bread ruled alone. “Bread,” they clamored. “Bread, bread!”

Not everyone knows, but people do know.

Quote

They are not his sons. Stannis told it true, that day he met with Renly. Joffrey and Tommen were never Robert’s sons. This boy, though . . . “Listen to me,” Brienne began. Then she heard Dog barking, loud and frantic. 

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey gets plenty of hate although Tyrion was certainly blamed too.

No matter who the people blame, the Lannisters are well hated in KL. All of them, including Joffrey.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Joffrey gets plenty of hate although Tyrion was certainly blamed too.

That is the riot - and most likely a riot orchestrated and arranged by Varys - which but involves a tiny fraction of the population of KL.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Not everyone knows, but people do know.

Brienne doesn't know anything, she just believes Stannis now. Belief is not knowledge.

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

No matter who the people blame, the Lannisters are well hated in KL. All of them, including Joffrey.

Joffrey isn't a Lannister.

The Lannisters certainly are unpopular, though, especially Tywin and Jaime, for their role during the Sack. Cersei is not very popular either, as we see in AFfC. But neither she nor Joffrey are hated.

Tyrion is hated, obviously, because looks like a monster.