The Rich and Powerful Who Abuse the System: the contempt topic

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Chinese EVs are going to be eating some lunches. I've started seeing BYDs here in Sweden over there last year or so.

Haven't seen one here best to my knowledge. Just looking it up, the prices aren't terrible for the lower end ones, but you still have to consider the other costs that come with it. The prices on the cooler looking ones, if I was going to spend that, I'd still go with a gas only car. I'm in the market since my G35X died and I'd much rather buy a newish Accord or a slightly more used Acura. Can speak about the situation in Europe, but I don't see a ton of public charging spaces in there parts unless you're somewhere that's rather fancy. 

[Kalbear]

In the Seattle area it's quite different, as you might think from a tech-heavy place. Teslas are everywhere, and there are a lot of non-Teslas driving around regularly - both common ones like Kias and Leafs, and rarer ones like Lucid and Rivian. Charging stations are all over the place - hospitals, apartment complexes, Target and grocery stores, tons of superchargers.

I do think the market isn't as strong as EV makers were hoping for (and Tesla echoes this in their earnings reports) but there's a lot of regional variance. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Yeah I believe Seattle is like that. There were a lot in San Fran when I was there last year, but at the same time I didn't see that many when I was in LA. I support the shift to EVs, but I think there's still underlying problems that are hard to solve, mainly a lack of buy-in, half the country is broke and can't afford them and the federal government isn't doing enough. It's not for a lack of trying, however the climate for a massive overhaul is like you said, regional. 

[Kalbear]

I think one of the big wins here is that used EVs are now much more common and are actually good - and affordable. Leafs are still garbage to buy used because of battery degradation, but you can get a used Tesla Model 3 or even Model S for under $30k with well over 200 mile range and often crazy amounts of features. Soon we'll be seeing Kias and Hyundai models at that same price point too, and that's sort of the sweet spot of going for it compared to buying them new. 

My take is that personal infrastructure is the biggest hurdle; if you don't own your home (and most people don't) or you live somewhere with more public parking how do you charge reliably? That's a real barrier. 

ETA: in more topical news, Microsoft hit $3tn market cap and also laid off 2000 people basically at the same exact time. Probably more to follow.

Edited January 26 by Kalbear

[maarsen]

58 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Yeah I believe Seattle is like that. There were a lot in San Fran when I was there last year, but at the same time I didn't see that many when I was in LA. I support the shift to EVs, but I think there's still underlying problems that are hard to solve, mainly a lack of buy-in, half the country is broke and can't afford them and the federal government isn't doing enough. It's not for a lack of trying, however the climate for a massive overhaul is like you said, regional. 

Batteries don't do well in cold weather. If you get a prolonged cold snap In Minneapolis, your EV becomes useless.

[Kalbear]

49 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Batteries don't do well in cold weather. If you get a prolonged cold snap In Minneapolis, your EV becomes useless.

This really isn't accurate at all. They are less efficient (though they're getting a LOT better, and solid state batteries will be better yet) but the idea that they're useless is utterly ridiculous. The big difference is that they get lower range, like 30% lower. 

Tesla has problems with charging in very low (sub -20 F) temperatures at high speeds using their DC fast charging thing. Lvl 2 chargers still work fine.

[Impmk2]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Chinese EVs are going to be eating some lunches. I've started seeing BYDs here in Sweden over there last year or so.

Chinese EVs are going to have a difficult time in the US due to the extremely high import tariff imposed on them (25% from a quick google).

But yeah here (Australia) BYDs have been on sale for about 18 months now. They're everywhere. Have driven one and it's a bit weird on the design side but ok otherwise. Not sure how the materials will hold up but time will tell.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I'm no expert here, but I heard a report this morning that in general the EV market is in a lot of trouble (at least in the US). They said Tesla was the one brand that was still holding up, but that could be crashing too, Musk or no Musk. 

So this is where you need to be careful with the reporting. The US EV market 'crash' was EV sales growing by less than predicted. They still grew (7.6% of new car sales in 2023 vs 5.9% in 2022). A lot of that is probably to be expected in a high inflation, higher interest rate environment especially when you're looking at more expensive cars.

 

58 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

(though they're getting a LOT better, and solid state batteries will be better yet)

I'm of the opinion that the promised land of solid state will never come (has been 5 years away for the last 10 years), and probably never needs to. We're getting to the point where the latest chemistries being trialled in traditional lithium ion batteries (lithium sulphur, silicone doped anodes) are close to hitting the energy densities promised by solid state, with none of the draw backs around ease of manufacturing or the fragility of the product.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Surprised not to see here the story of Joe Lewis pleading guilty for insider trading.  He gave stock tips to his private pilots and chauffeurs because he didn’t establish a retirement plan for them and felt bad…

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, maarsen said:

Batteries don't do well in cold weather. If you get a prolonged cold snap In Minneapolis, your EV becomes useless.

Which has been widely reported, that the Teslas particuarly weren't charging -- even in this very thread!  

[maarsen]

Just now, Zorral said:

Which has been widely reported, that the Teslas particuarly weren't charging -- even in this very thread!  

Yeah, that is basic chemistry.  Reactions slow down in the cold.

[Kalbear]

Just now, maarsen said:

Yeah, that is basic chemistry.  Reactions slow down in the cold.

Yes, but they don't stop. Also in EVs they have heating systems for the batteries for this reason.

Again the idea that they are useless in cold weather is just bullshit.

[maarsen]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Yes, but they don't stop. Also in EVs they have heating systems for the batteries for this reason.

Again the idea that they are useless in cold weather is just bullshit.

And where does the battery heating energy come from? Extremely long extension cords?

[Ran]

When all the news was going around about chargers in Chicago not working, I saw people who said they were up in Alberta and Winnipeg saying they had no problems at all -- it was some grid issue specific to Chicago that was at fault, not some real issue with the Teslas.

EVs are popular in Norway -- 80% of all new cars purchased in 2022 were electric.

[Zorral]

So all the reporting across the country in this Polar Vortex we had for about two weeks, specifically speaking about Tesla, is false news?

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, maarsen said:

And where does the battery heating energy come from? Extremely long extension cords?

I had an older pre-computer, naturally aspirated diesel truck for years.   Was super cheap for what it was, but required some extra planning in the winter.  Block heater, insulated blanket to throw over hood in extreme cold, mix some kerosene into the fuel when below freezing... I always had a 100 ft extension cord in the cab for the block heater when I was away from the house, arranged for parking at work that let me plug her in.  A couple times actually ran a gas generator in the bed to heat it so I could drive home at the end of the day when working in the boonies.  Didn't you guys (Canadian diesel operators) used to run your old diesels all winter up there so you didn't need to start them cold?

I'd imagine if you live north of 38 or so it'd make sense to invest in a heated charging area, and not rely on charging away from the home base in the winter.  

Edited January 26 by Larry of the Lawn

[maarsen]

Just now, Larry of the Lawn said:

I had an older pre-computer, naturally aspirated diesel truck for years.   Was super cheap for what it was, but required some extra planning in the winter.  Block heater, insulated blanket to throw over hood in extreme cold, mix some kerosene into the fuel when below freezing... I always had a 100 ft extension cord in the cab for the block heater when I was away from the house, arranged for parking at work that let me plug her in.  A couple times actually ran a gas generator in the bed to heat it so I could drive home at the end of the day when working in the boonies.  Didn't you guys used to run your old diesels al winter up there so you didn't need to start them cold?

I'd imagine if you live north of 38 or so it'd make sense to invest in a heated charging area, and not rely on charging away from the home base in the winter.  

I still remember going to work one morning on a cold winter's day and seeing a car in front of me trailing a 100' extension cord.

[Larry of the Lawn]

12 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I still remember going to work one morning on a cold winter's day and seeing a car in front of me trailing a 100' extension cord.

When I was in highschool my dad and I went to work in during a snow storm, had the generator and cord in the back to keep the truck warm and run tools at work (new construction site, no electric hookup yet), and arrived to find the tailgate down, generator no where to be seen, and a very mangled cord dragging behind the vehicle.  Somewhere en route, the generator had slid back in the icy bed, knocked the tailgate down, and fallen out.

Retraced our steps and in the half foot of snow on the road we were able to see the exact location the generator had fallen out, complete with footprints showing where some lucky passersby had found it and loaded it into their vehicle. 

Anyway, I think the cold-weather charging is easily surmountable with proper planning.  I think the overall EV issues are going to be pricing, culture, and getting the grid less petroleum dependent.  

Edited January 27 by Larry of the Lawn

[Kalbear]

46 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So all the reporting across the country in this Polar Vortex we had for about two weeks, specifically speaking about Tesla, is false news?

It means you probably just read the headline and not the article.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here

In this case they note the teslas could not charge and had to be towed...to a working charging station.

[Conflicting Thought]

dont this charge stations consume like a shit ton of energy? more when its charging (meaning that i saw a video where they messure charging stations, and even when idle they are expending allot of energy) and even more when its very cold outside? i think that EVs are kind of a distraction, specially when it comes to cars, like we shouldnt be aming to replace all combustion cars for EV ones, we should be getting cars the fuck out of the streets.

also maybe it would be a good idea that this change was in the hands of the state, so companies like tesla cant just put their chargers and make them exclusive to teslas, and things of that nature... one can dream

[Impmk2]

Chicago issue looks to be a combination of:

a) Chargers being out (probably local grid problems - note: this would also take a gas station out) / charging cords and ports getting frozen up and
b) Newer owners not understanding that in extreme cold the cars will sit there and warm the battery for a while before starting to charge, and then charge slower.

You can't really solve a). Extreme weather happens. Charging (and gas / petrol) stations will occasionally go out. And before extreme weather events it's always a good idea to charge to a high level (or get a full tank) so you don't have to screw around with the inevitable infrastructure problems.

You can largely solve b) by making AC charging available everywhere people park their cars (these can be just normal power outlets with metering), so people aren't trying to charge cold-soaked batteries and clogging up the DC infrastructure - which should really be reserved for people travelling long distance anyway.

 

4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

i think that EVs are kind of a distraction, specially when it comes to cars, like we shouldnt be aming to replace all combustion cars for EV ones, we should be getting cars the fuck out of the streets.

This is a pipedream and simply won't happen. Much of the western world is built around cars. There is a trend towards less cars per household, but large portions of the world won't accept just stopping driving altogether. For net zero we need that transportation to be fossil fuel free, and EVs are looking like the only viable solution right now.

Yes DC chargers pull a lot of power - they need to so you can get back on the road in minutes rather than hours. But as I said above that's why you really need good AC charging infrastructure so you can minimise its use. No one should be relying on it for their primary source of electrons.