Skahaz mo Kandaq and the Brazen Beasts

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Could be, but even if it turns out to be the Green Grace or someone, the intent was not to kill Dany.

As someone else pointed out, honeyed locusts isn't the type of food that Dany would enjoy.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As someone else pointed out, honeyed locusts isn't the type of food that Dany would enjoy.

Yes, but they (he?) probably wouldn't have considered that. Honeyed locusts were a common thing in Meereen, and probably throughout Slaver's Bay. Everyone they've ever known considers them a great delicacy. So they would naturally assume Dany would at least try one. It's like someone in our western culture poisoning a chocolate chip cookie, not realizing that their target comes from a culture that abhors chocolate.

But from the effect on Belwas, we can also see that the poison was not meant to kill, which is why I suspect it was to merely purge her womb. It's an open secret that she's been carrying on with Daario, and there wasn't even an attempt to keep their dalliance the night before the wedding a secret. So anyone marrying Dany would want to make sure that she is not carrying someone else's child, and ensure that anyone child she does bear happens late enough that no one can question its paternity. The only person with this motivation is Hizdahr.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But from the effect on Belwas, we can also see that the poison was not meant to kill, which is why I suspect it was to merely purge her womb.

To be fair, Belwas is quite a massive individual, and a bigger dose of the poison would probably be required in order to kill him. The dose in the honeyed locusts would likely be lethal for Dany, though.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, Belwas is quite a massive individual, and a bigger dose of the poison would probably be required in order to kill him. The dose in the honeyed locusts would likely be lethal for Dany, though.

Also doubtful. There are all kinds of poisons that are not affected by size or weight, like the strangler, manticore venom, Tears of Lys . . .  It's unlikely that the Meereenese would not have access to any of these.

[BlackLightning]

Skahaz is loyal but that doesn't mean he's a good man nor does it mean that he's trustworthy.

And the fact that he is loyal does not mean that he wouldn't harm Dany.

Bowen Marsh was loyal to the Watch for all intents and purposes but he ended up murdering the leader of the Watch. Tywin Lannister has always been loyal to the Seven Kingdoms and the Iron Throne but he did not hesitate nor feel bad about deceiving one king and openly defying another.

On 10/9/2023 at 10:06 AM, John Suburbs said:

It's hard to say if he's loyal to Dany or just disloyal to the greater families who've always looked down on his. He might be using her as an opportunity to remake Meereenese society in his favor.

Who isn't using her as an opportunity to remake Meereen in their own image and favor??

Frankly, I don't trust any member of Daenerys' inner circle apart from Barristan, Grey Worm, her core Dothraki and maybe Missandei. Everyone else is varying degrees of sketch.

Even Missandei does things that make me feel odd.

On 10/9/2023 at 10:08 AM, John Suburbs said:

It's doubtful that Skaz did that. The more likely culprit is Hizdahr -- not to kill Dany but to purge her womb.

I partially agree.

I too think it is Hizdahr but I think that he wanted to kill Dany and use the precedent she set to become the undisputed King of Meereen.

Keep in mind that Belwas is three times Dany's size and had gorged himself on the locusts after already having a full stomach.

The dosage that made him deathly ill would've killed Dany. And Dany would've been eating them on an empty stomach.

Why not use other poisons?

1. Whoever tried to kill Dany (regardless Hizdahr, Skahaz or someone else) was sloppy
2. They wanted to make it look like she caught a particularly bad case of the bloody flux and expired quickly
3. Whoever did it likely didn't have access to the more elaborate and subtle poisons and likely had to make do with what they could get

Edited October 12, 2023 by BlackLightning

[SeanF]

I view Skahaz as being like one of those minor nobles who came to prominence in the wake of the French Revolution (which was very much the work of lesser nobles, and professional people, blocked from advancement under the ancien regime).

He’s loyal to the new order of things, but also seeking his own advantage, and almost certainly looking to position himself as the man who’ll govern Meereen in Dany’s name, when she’s gone.

However, he is quite right that Hizdahr had to be overthrown, and the slaver armies smashed, in the face of invasion from Volantis.

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Who isn't using her as an opportunity to remake Meereen in their own image and favor??

Frankly, I don't trust any member of Daenerys' inner circle apart from Barristan, Grey Worm, her core Dothraki and maybe Missandei. Everyone else is varying degrees of sketch.

Even Missandei does things that make me feel odd.

Well yeah, and I think Dany has come to realize this, especially after what Jorah did. But trust is not just a factor of someone's intentions, but their capabilities too. You can trust people's loyalties but still have doubts about their competence and understandings of situations.

 

Quote

I partially agree.

I too think it is Hizdahr but I think that he wanted to kill Dany and use the precedent she set to become the undisputed King of Meereen.

Keep in mind that Belwas is three times Dany's size and had gorged himself on the locusts after already having a full stomach.

The dosage that made him deathly ill would've killed Dany. And Dany would've been eating them on an empty stomach.

Why not use other poisons?

1. Whoever tried to kill Dany (regardless Hizdahr, Skahaz or someone else) was sloppy
2. They wanted to make it look like she caught a particularly bad case of the bloody flux and expired quickly
3. Whoever did it likely didn't have access to the more elaborate and subtle poisons and likely had to make do with what they could get

If he wanted to kill her, there are plenty of poisons that could do so and take out Belwas regardless of his size or weight. The strangler, for instance, or the Tears of Lys. Only a poison that works systemically, through the digestive and circulatory systems would be affected by weight, not one that works directly on contact.

All poisons can be made to look natural in the right circumstances. Nobody connected Weese's death to a poison, but we know better. And if they really wanted Dany dead, they wouldn't try to guess how many locusts she would eat -- it would be lethal with a single bite.

And we are talking about the top echelon of the most powerful city in Slaver's Bay, with the possibility of involvement by their leading health practitioner ("those who know how to heal also know how to kill"). They most certainly have access to all of the most lethal poisons in the world.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:32 PM, John Suburbs said:

Also doubtful. There are all kinds of poisons that are not affected by size or weight, like the strangler, manticore venom, Tears of Lys . . .  It's unlikely that the Meereenese would not have access to any of these.

Interestingly, in an early draft of that chapter, the locusts are still there but there is no mention of any poison. So that might have been a late addition on GRRM’s part.

[Craving Peaches]

It makes no sense for someone who wants to poison Daenerys to use locusts because she doesn't like them. The two people we know like the locusts are:

• Hizdahr
• Belwas

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It makes no sense for someone who wants to poison Daenerys to use locusts because she doesn't like them. The two people we know like the locusts are:

• Hizdahr
• Belwas

I think if the locusts were meant to kill, Hizdahr was the target, and if they were meant to look like someone else was trying to kill Dany, Belwas was the target. Also, though, real question : Do we have definitive proof that the locusts were actually poisoned, or does Belwas just get sick? Could Belwas have been poisoned a different way? 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think if the locusts were meant to kill, Hizdahr was the target, and if they were meant to look like someone else was trying to kill Dany, Belwas was the target. Also, though, real question : Do we have definitive proof that the locusts were actually poisoned, or does Belwas just get sick? Could Belwas have been poisoned a different way? 

Someone admitted they poisoned them, but then they were also under duress so I don't think there is any definitive proof that they were poisoned, also Belwas' symptoms remind me of the time I got indigestion so...

Edited October 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Someone admitted they poisoned them, but then they were also under duress so I don't think there is any definitive proof that they were poisoned, also Belwas' symptoms remind me of the time I got indigestion so...

It would be hilarious if no one was trying to poison anyone at all, and Skahaz just used Belwas indigestion as an excuse to make his move, lol. 

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It makes no sense for someone who wants to poison Daenerys to use locusts because she doesn't like them. The two people we know like the locusts are:

• Hizdahr
• Belwas

You're not getting what I'm trying to say.

It's not so much a question of competence but a question of intel.

Okay, so Daenerys doesn't like the locusts. Great. How many people know that she doesn't like the locusts? Sure, she doesn't like a fair bit of Meereenese food but she's eaten a bit of it on occasion to be polite. It's part of her floppy ears speil.

What I'm saying is that either the would-be assassins didn't know that she didn't like them or they underestimated how much she didn't like them. Or maybe -- just maybe -- they failed on purpose as part of some larger, more complicated plan.

In any case, Hizdahr was definitely trying to peer-pressure Dany into eating the locusts. A weaker-willed and/or very distracted individual would've acquiesced and had a few just so their nagging spouse would shut up about it. As we know, Dany is neither.

What made it really strange (and makes Hizdahr look complicit, if not outright guilty) is the fact that Hizdahr didn't have any locusts at all. All the more stranger when you remember that Hizdahr says that he likes them.

49 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

It would be hilarious if no one was trying to poison anyone at all, and Skahaz just used Belwas indigestion as an excuse to make his move, lol. 

Hey that's actually very possible lol

It's also possible that it wasn't indigestion but just a matter of Belwas having a case of the bloody flux that simply presented itself differently. After all, Dany appears to have contracted it as well.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Daenerys is not fully sure of their loyalties but she is giving them the benefit of the doubt.  That's one of the traits I love about Daenerys.  She has maturity and intelligence beyond her age.  She needs the men and therefore gives them the benefit.  Skahaz is one of my favorite people too.  His story and what little we know of his backstory can be a story in themselves.  I would happily read a backstory of Skahaz and find it more interesting than another Dunk and Egg.  Reznak mo Reznak is more than likely also loyal to Dany.  Reznak's culture comes out from time to time but it doesn't mean he is not supportive of Dany's administration.  A wise ruler like Dany will listen to opposing viewpoints and consider their merits.  Which she does credibly. 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Who poisoned the locusts and who was the target?  It is one of the most interesting mysteries in aSoIaF.  My suspicion is on Hizdahr.  A man from the culture who declined to enjoy the local delicacy is strange.  The intended target was Daenerys.  Belwas and his appetite saved the Queen. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It makes no sense for someone who wants to poison Daenerys to use locusts because she doesn't like them. The two people we know like the locusts are:

• Hizdahr
• Belwas

But they may not know that Dany doesn't like them. This is a culture that loves honeyed locusts. Everyone thinks they are a great delicacy, so they would have no reason to think Dany would be any different. It's just like most westerners love chocolate but it's nearly universally despised in Asia. And even Europeans hate American chocolate -- it tastes like vomit. So if an Asian showed up in feudal Vienna and someone wanted to poison him, they might choose chocolate because they know nothing of Asian culture but everyone they've ever known loves chocolate.

Also, the Meereenese would certainly have access to all kinds of poisons that kill regardless of size or weight, so it looks pretty obvious that the locusts were not intended to kill. A more likely purpose would be to purge Dany's womb, especially considering that her dalliances with Daario are an open secret. And the person with the highest motivation to ensure Dany is not with child is Hizdahr -- who also happened to be the one who kept imploring her to try them, just a few.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Everyone thinks they are a great delicacy, so they would have no reason to think Dany would be any different.

Aside from the fact that Daenerys has already shown she despises many Meereenese customs?

[sweetsunray]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:35 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, but they (he?) probably wouldn't have considered that. Honeyed locusts were a common thing in Meereen, and probably throughout Slaver's Bay. Everyone they've ever known considers them a great delicacy.

Dany's been in Meereen long enough for anyone with eyes and ears at court would know she mostly eats fruit. Whenever she's asked what she wants for food, she asks for some type of fruit. Dany's a fructarian bat in Meereen so to speak. If the locusts were poisoned they were never meant to actually poison Dany whatsoever, because it would have been expected that Dany wouldn't eat them anyway. Instead then it would have been the intent to make Dany believe there was an assassination plot with poison.

Edited October 14, 2023 by sweetsunray

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:34 PM, BlackLightning said:

What made it really strange (and makes Hizdahr look complicit, if not outright guilty) is the fact that Hizdahr didn't have any locusts at all. All the more stranger when you remember that Hizdahr says that he likes them.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:58 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Aside from the fact that Daenerys has already shown she despises many Meereenese customs?

Customs are one thing. Food is another. It would be like someone not liking apples even though they might not approve of interracial marriage.