Did Tywin give THAT command?

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You talk as though you are defending a politician or other public figure, but Tywin is not a real person. He is a character. We are meant to be doing a character analysis, not have a debate, where we defend one party at all costs.

Lmao, the irony of this statement.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And I think you have badly misread the character. I do not think he acts logically, he WANTS to appear calm and logical, but he isn't.

It doesn't matter what you, or I believe how logically does he act. It matters what he, Tywin, believes. You are reading it as if there is a universal truth what's logical and what isn't, and that Tywin wants to show others that he fits it. When in fact he has a completely different criteria to what is logical or what isn't from both of us, and many other characters in the books as well.

And anyway:

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 You talk as though you are defending a politician or other public figure, but Tywin is not a real person.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And I think you have badly misread the character.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don't agree with your take either, I think you are quite wrong about who Tywin is, and that you accept the POV of Tywin, or those who like Tywin

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You disagree with my reasoning, but that doesn't mean my reasoning is wrong, merely that you disagree with it.

Wow, do you really want say how wrong I am. And you are then getting insulted on me claiming that you are ranting? You can now block me if you want, will be better for both of us, I guess.

[Kal-L]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't believe he explicitly ordered it. But he intended it with the choice of men he sent to those rooms.

Tywin is smart, but he is not as rational as some readers believe him to be. The whole case of Cersei as bride for Rhaegar goes way beyond the rational. He promises her she will be the prince's wife when she's little, but she has to keep it secret. Then he believes that by the end of the tourney at Lannisport, a betrothal will be public. Cersei is 10. But Aerys tells him no, he won"t marry his son to a servant's daughter. Aerys sends Steffon Baratheon all the way to Volantis to search for a bride, but ends up shipwrecked. Tywin has Cersei brought to court at 12. Nevertheless a year later, Aerys weds Rhaegar to Elia Martell. And still, Tywin keeps Cersei at court, refusing any other marriage deals for 3 more years. He only leaves court and takes Cersei with him to the Rock, once he learns Aerys picked Jaime to be KG. 

This isn't rational behavior, but persistent behavior.

Tywin's persistence towards the Taragaryen's road is fascinating. I wonder how he would have taken the news of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna Stark his QoLaB at Harrenhal and then several months later disappearing with her. Basically crushing any hope he might have had of ever having Cersei as Rhaegar's queen. Did he feel slighted by the Starks ?

By the way, Tywin's lack of rationality regarding the Targaryens seem to a family a case. I won't bring on Cersei but look at Ser Kevan's POV :

Quote

If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

That ability to delude oneself is almost unsettling. Entertaining (to us readers) for sure but unsettling.

Also, when would Ser Kevan have met Lyanna Stark ? I thought the Lannisters weren't present at the Great Tourney of Harrenhal.

[Dofs]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't believe he explicitly ordered it. But he intended it with the choice of men he sent to those rooms.

Tywin is smart, but he is not as rational as some readers believe him to be. The whole case of Cersei as bride for Rhaegar goes way beyond the rational. He promises her she will be the prince's wife when she's little, but she has to keep it secret. Then he believes that by the end of the tourney at Lannisport, a betrothal will be public. Cersei is 10. But Aerys tells him no, he won"t marry his son to a servant's daughter. Aerys sends Steffon Baratheon all the way to Volantis to search for a bride, but ends up shipwrecked. Tywin has Cersei brought to court at 12. Nevertheless a year later, Aerys weds Rhaegar to Elia Martell. And still, Tywin keeps Cersei at court, refusing any other marriage deals for 3 more years. He only leaves court and takes Cersei with him to the Rock, once he learns Aerys picked Jaime to be KG. 

This isn't rational behavior, but persistent behavior.

It really all comes back to his lifelong goal to make House Lannister as powerful and influential as possible. Becoming the royal family would have been the ultimate prize but marrying into the royal family is the next best thing. Hence he tries to work towards that goal as much as possible, even when it doesn't seem realistic anymore.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

By the way, Tywin's lack of rationality regarding the Targaryens seem to a family a case. I won't bring on Cersei but look at Ser Kevan's POV :

Agreed. Heck even Genna dresses Cersei up at the start of the tourney bearing the message with such certainty that the tourney will end with a betrothal.

But yeah, Kevan's delusion is perhaps the strangest. He knows about Lancel and Cersei and Jaime. He knows how she had a bad influence on Joffrey and demands only to be Hand if he can also be regent, and she returns to the Rock to stay away from Tommen as far as possible. He knows she's politically stupid, a bad mother and dangerous. "But only if Rhaegar had wed Cersei"...

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Lmao, the irony of this statement.

It doesn't matter what you, or I believe how logically does he act. It matters what he, Tywin, believes. You are reading it as if there is a universal truth what's logical and what isn't, and that Tywin wants to show others that he fits it. When in fact he has a completely different criteria to what is logical or what isn't from both of us, and many other characters in the books as well.

And anyway:

Wow, do you really want say how wrong I am. And you are then getting insulted on me claiming that you are ranting? You can now block me if you want, will be better for both of us, I guess.

I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. I am stating I think you are wrong to explain why I am making no further arguments, as I think your arguments...are based on ...a misreading of the character. Being wrong about something is not the same as a personal insult, if you think it is, that's on you. And this is an opinion, so ....it is especially not something to get defensive about. 

Last thing - The thing you said about Tywin having a different idea about what is logical, ....I don't think he is being logical. Again, I think you are wrong. Even when I say it, you still persist in acting like you...I don't know, have your PhD in Tywin-ology or something, and so your opinion is the authority on the matter? Maybe pay attention to why I am telling you I think you are wrong, rather than just the existence of the words. It might help you when you communicate with people that you disagree with. Or hey, keep acting like everyone else is emotional...while you act super emotional, lol. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

It really all comes back to his lifelong goal to make House Lannister as powerful and influential as possible. Becoming the royal family would have been the ultimate prize but marrying into the royal family is the next best thing. Hence he tries to work towards that goal as much as possible, even when it doesn't seem realistic anymore.

And someone like Elia Martel, whom he refused as a bride for Jaime but suggested to be Tyrion's wife instead, ended up as Rhaegar's wife. There is no doubt in my mind that he saw himself as taking insults and groveled to this end, and then when Elia got it he wanted her punished somehow.

The Mountain may not even have been the first attempt. Is it coincidence that the Smiling Knight is compared to the Mountain in Jaime's mind, given the fact that he was one of the outlaws of the Kingswood Brotherhood who attempted to kidnap Elia Martell while escorted by the LC himself Gerold Hightower? The audacity of this. It's not unlike Cersei's plan even for Tristane.

What's the song again?

Quote

No man's gold was from them,

nor any maiden's hand.

Gold and a maiden's hand.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

He knows she's politically stupid, a bad mother and dangerous. "But only if Rhaegar had wed Cersei"...

Rhaegar would have taken care of the children. And Cersei would just have been a pretty queen doing noting. So think Kevan...

Or more likely, Rhaegar would have sent her away, even before the marriage.

[Dofs]

8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. I am stating I think you are wrong to explain why I am making no further arguments, as I think your arguments...are based on ...a misreading of the character. Being wrong about something is not the same as a personal insult, if you think it is, that's on you. And this is an opinion, so ....it is especially not something to get defensive about. 

Last thing - The thing you said about Tywin having a different idea about what is logical, ....I don't think he is being logical. Again, I think you are wrong. Even when I say it, you still persist in acting like you...I don't know, have your PhD in Tywin-ology or something, and so your opinion is the authority on the matter? Maybe pay attention to why I am telling you I think you are wrong, rather than just the existence of the words. It might help you when you communicate with people that you disagree with. Or hey, keep acting like everyone else is emotional...while you act super emotional, lol. 

Omg, the sheer irony. You are literally complaining about what you yourself are doing. I am not gonna reply to you anymore, since me arguing with you went exactly how I thought it would based on your very first reply.

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And someone like Elia Martel, whom he refused as a bride for Jaime but suggested to be Tyrion's wife instead, ended up as Rhaegar's wife. There is no doubt in my mind that he saw himself as taking insults and groveled to this end, and then when Elia got it he wanted her punished somehow.

The Mountain may not even have been the first attempt. Is it coincidence that the Smiling Knight is compared to the Mountain in Jaime's mind, given the fact that he was one of the outlaws of the Kingswood Brotherhood who attempted to kidnap Elia Martell while escorted by the LC himself Gerold Hightower? The audacity of this. It's not unlike Cersei's plan even for Tristane.

Again, Tywin makes lessons out of punishments. I don't see Tywin trying to make a lesson out of Elia's death. And if there is no lesson for anyone and a supposed deep hatred towards Elia being married to Rhaegar instead of Cersei, then why would he still be upset about it during the Sack?

Tywin hates public slights. He has a deep fear of being humiliated in front of others, that comes all the way from his childhood when people laughed at his father. He is so afraid of this ever happening again, he literally doesn't smile himself. And this is why when he think he is being humiliated, he makes it a public lesson in front of an audience so that anyone who chuckled, questioned, thought lesser of him or House Lannister would get scared of doing it and not think that way. Which is why his lessons need an audience. And I don't see a lesson or an audience in the Elia case.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

22 hours ago, Dofs said:

It looks like you have started to rant here. Calm down, Tywin is only a book character.

@Dofs : This is where it got unpleasant. Do you understand that saying "calm down" and having this attitude is rude? You were rude. So, don't be surprised that when your rude, and people respond in kind. You are the problem Dofs. "You are complaining about what you are doing now" - Yes, bro, when people are rude, people are rude back to them. That's how it works. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Again, Tywin makes lessons out of punishments. I don't see Tywin trying to make a lesson out of Elia's death.

I disagree with this bar you set that Tywin must make a lesson out of punishment to others, or that it has to be a specific lesson other than "I'm utterly ruthless, don't cross me." or  "We're lions and top of the chain."

Quote

And if there is no lesson for anyone and a supposed deep hatred towards Elia being married to Rhaegar instead of Cersei, then why would he still be upset about it during the Sack?

I find this question of yours weird. Hatred and resentment can exist without trying to educate anyone. Preferably an educator does not feel any of that towards their pupils. Nor do such sentiments cease after Rhaegar's death.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I disagree with this bar you set that Tywin must make a lesson out of punishment to others, or that it has to be a specific lesson other than "I'm utterly ruthless, don't cross me." or  "We're lions and top of the chain."

So what punishment did he not make a lesson out of, if we ignore Elia?

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I find this question of yours weird. Hatred and resentment can exist without trying to educate anyone. Preferably an educator does not feel any of that towards their pupils. Nor do such sentiments cease after Rhaegar's death.

The question here was more about why does Tywin feel hatred at not getting tied to Targaryens my marriage, at the time when he should have felt happy he wasn't tied to Targaryens by marriage.

[The Bard of Banefort]

He probably didn’t need to. Either he said nothing about Elia and figured the Mountain would attack her based on his reputation, or he told him to “do with her what you will.” Tywin’s a liar, but I think he may have admitted to giving the order to Tyrion if he had done it directly. He admitted to ordering the kids’ deaths to Tyrion, after all.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Dofs said:

So what punishment did he not make a lesson out of, if we ignore Elia?

Disagree completely. Tywin uses this "lesson" excuse, to justify him loving to hurt others. He's basically a smarter version of Joff, because he knows when he can get away with hurting others and when he can't. Case and point, there was no need to kill Robb, Cat and all the others at the Red Wedding, he could have had the Freys taken them prisoner, but because Tywin loves his bloodshed he ordered the Freys to kill as many people as they could.

[Dofs]

41 minutes ago, sifth said:

Disagree completely. Tywin uses this "lesson" excuse, to justify him loving to hurt others. He's basically a smarter version of Joff, because he knows when he can get away with hurting others and when he can't. Case and point, there was no need to kill Robb, Cat and all the others at the Red Wedding, he could have had the Freys taken them prisoner, but because Tywin loves his bloodshed he ordered the Freys to kill as many people as they could.

Well, I disagree completely with that, and your example especially.

Not just because there are factual issues, like the fact that Cat wasn't supposed to be killed, but even on conceptual level, Tywin can't enjoy violence that's happening thousands of kilometers away.

[Equilibrium]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:48 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

By the Fourteen Flames, what a scandal! I call for a meeting of all freeholders!

Adverse possession  Freeholders croaked, just me around hahaha

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, I disagree completely with that, and your example especially.

Not just because there are factual issues, like the fact that Cat wasn't supposed to be killed, but even on conceptual level, Tywin can't enjoy violence that's happening thousands of kilometers away.

Huh? Tywin doesn’t have to be a spectator to enjoy it. His satisfaction isn’t tied to him witnessing events firsthand, but rather in the knowledge that his enemies were humiliated, betrayed, destroyed, all for the grave insult of defying the Lannisters.

[Equilibrium]

12 hours ago, Dofs said:

This idea that Tywin is always trying to save face is just bizarre to me, Tywin wants people to know that he will destroy them if they cross him or House Lannister! That's how he makes sure people would be afraid to go against him. That's literally his MO. That's his worldview. That's how he sees that the world works. 

Tywin desires revenge for slighting the honor of his house, but he doesn't want to be associated with retributions when it would in and of itself slight the honor of his house. If he was open about the thing that he "ordered a noblewomen be raped and killed because she through no fault of her own got married to a guy he wanted his daughter to marry" he wouldn't be respected as a man not to be trifled with, he would be reviled as a madman, Lannisters would be considered new Lothsons and no one would ever engage with them rationally. Tywin knows he can't just do that publicly so he maintains the deniability he knows that "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." Who would consider bending a knee to him if they knew he ordered Elia to be raped and killed over taking Cersei's place? Same with Red Wedding, he doesn't want to be associated with an act widely believed to be afront to laws of gods and men, and his behavior towards the Freys after betrays the true mastermind behind the plan (Lothar and the rest just did the technical side of the planning, it was Tywin's idea to murder Robb Stark) because if Freys just wanted to do it, there would be no endless Frey demands after it, Tywin would just made peace with them (or not even that, consider how he treats Balon Greyjoy's constant proposals for the alliance), the fact Freys demand so much from him means they did something on Tywin's behalf "There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool."

[Bael's Bastard]

I think Tywin explicitly or implicitly commanded the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys. As for Elia, Tywin could have commanded that the Mountain kill any witnesses knowing that Elia was essentially being held hostage with her children at the time, or perhaps he could have left it unsaid and assumed that the Mountain would kill anyone present who could implicate him. It's true that Elia wasn't of much worth alive without her children, and that everyone knew/assumed the Lannisters killed her children anyway, but the accusation would have been different coming from a living Elia.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Well, I disagree completely with that, and your example especially.

Not just because there are factual issues, like the fact that Cat wasn't supposed to be killed, but even on conceptual level, Tywin can't enjoy violence that's happening thousands of kilometers away.

Give me an example of a “lesson” that didn’t involve mass murder or absolute cruelty to a person? Non exist, but they serve as nice excuses for Tywin to embrace his lack of humanity.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

So what punishment did he not make a lesson out of, if we ignore Elia?

I said any "lesson" that goes beyond the general "I'm ruthless" to a general audience. These are the general "I'm rutless" lessons

• Tarbecks and Reynes: they weren't any left alive to learn
• Red Wedding: Robb and thousands of his armies not left alive to learn
• The Riverlanders after kidnapping of Tyrion: lots of smallfolk and young lords. It also didn't teach Robb a lesson, because he captured Jaime for it
• ...

Anyhow I call bull on your "teaching a lesson" rule. He's just a mass abusive jerk who lashes out and then does some "post-rationalisation".

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

The question here was more about why does Tywin feel hatred at not getting tied to Targaryens my marriage, at the time when he should have felt happy he wasn't tied to Targaryens by marriage.

Because hatred is not rational, and a dead Rhaegar does not take the slight away of the girl (whom he thought no better than a bride for Tyrion) ended up being Rhaegar's bride.

And well Kevan's thoughts over Cersei and Rhaegar in his epilogue decades later, despite knowing the worst of Cersei, indicate what Tywin's beliefs would have been - if Rhaegar had only wed Cersei then there wouldn't have been Robert's Rebellion. "It's all Aerys's and Elia's fault"

Edited October 2, 2023 by sweetsunray