Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[SpaceChampion]

35 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

So Perrin doesn't kill her? That's news to me.

Basically:

1) no version of the Dark One winning was going to be good for her,

2) she wouldn't be trusted by anyone on the side of Light, and they'd put her on trial and execute her if captured, if not outright killed.

3) she needed someone trusted by the Light side to vouch for her being dead, and Perrin was the most likely to convince, and he was accessible in Tel'aran'rhiod. 

4) she Compelled him, and made him think he broke it. 

5) he did not.

I can't remember if it was Sanderson's speculation or RJ has actual plans for the outrigger novels but Lanfear was going to have an arc (in the Seanchan continent IIRC) and eventually going to see Rand happy, and come to terms they are toxic together and finally move on from her obsession with him.

Edited October 18, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Arakasi]

Yeah I agree that it’s a clever scene. Mat guessed it ten years ago but Brandon made him sit on it. But the scene is weird because Cyndane is just giving Perrin too much time there. When I originally read it I just wondered wtf is she doing?

[Gertrude]

Honestly, I kinda tuned out most of what was going on in TAR by the end. To me it seemed like there was too much possible and that when anything is possible, none of it actually matters. I didn't think Egwene just making mesaana an idiot was satisfying. I couldn't even tell you exactly what went down with Perrin and Leanfear and the above summary vaguely sounds familiar. Tar was good in the middle, then it got ridiculous IMO. I'd be fine with Lanfear actually dying, but she probably won't.

[fionwe1987]

This is news to me. Interesting, but also pretty convoluted for no reason. Even if the Light thought she was alive, she'd hardly have trouble keeping herself hidden. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Wouter]

16 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is news to me. Interesting, but also pretty convoluted for no reason. Even if the Light thought she was alive, she'd hardly have trouble keeping herself hidden. 

This way, she could establish herself as a Seanchan noblewomen or some such, using the one power in subtle ways to get to power without all alarms going off in the white tower and other power centres who could be a threat. Otherwise, she would have to keep a very low profile.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

Basically:

1) no version of the Dark One winning was going to be good for her,

2) she wouldn't be trusted by anyone on the side of Light, and they'd put her on trial and execute her if captured, if not outright killed.

3) she needed someone trusted by the Light side to vouch for her being dead, and Perrin was the most likely to convince, and he was accessible in Tel'aran'rhiod. 

4) she Compelled him, and made him think he broke it. 

5) he did not.

I can't remember if it was Sanderson's speculation or RJ has actual plans for the outrigger novels but Lanfear was going to have an arc (in the Seanchan continent IIRC) and eventually going to see Rand happy, and come to terms they are toxic together and finally move on from her obsession with him.

I definitely have to re-read that again, but this last segment feels to me that it could easily be a matter of interpretation, and Sanderson could easily say oh yeah that's it.

[Myrddin]

As I blew through the last book fairly quickly (and have not re-read any of the Sanderson ones*),  I barely remember much except for the broad strokes. You people astound me with what you've retained.  

 

*I haven't re-read the Sanderson volumes not from dislike (I enjoyed and appreciated being able to finish the series) but because I haven't done a full re-read of the series since preparing for Gathering Storm. I did start re-reading the series a few years ago at a leisurely pace in between other books. Finished book 6 last Spring. Will pick up 7 in a bit, I think.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Myrddin

[Arakasi]

Well I haven’t reread his because I don’t like them much. Like it was really hard to read the Mat parts. Egwene was good but eh to the rest. It does show that Brandon likes getting into those little details which well might work with thousand page books but not so much for a tv show.

Only reason I know about the Lanfear thing is from being a fan of The Dusty Wheel.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Arakasi

[karaddin]

I think I reread TGD and ToM before aMoL but even that was 11 years ago now lol. I'm definitely not remembering lots of the details, particularly most of what Perrin. 

[Corvinus85]

The only part about Perrin in AMoL which I distinctly remember is his final fight with Slayer, another meh moment. Their fight in ToM was 100x better and that is where Slayer should have died.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 and that is where Slayer should have died.

I mean, a lot of characters should have died along the way and not be carried into the Last Battle so we didn't have to have so many check ins as we go. Be ruthless - kill characters! May Uno be the first of many.

[Myrddin]

11 hours ago, Gertrude said:

May Uno be the first of many.

You know, I was disappointed they killed him off at first. His interactions with Nyneave and her judgmental stares always amused me. BUT killing him off and making him Gaidal was a nice concise way to communicate how heroes are spun out and live lives without being aware of their past. So when Birgitte shows up later, we now have a face to the one she's longing for.

I'm not thrilled with all of the changes to the show, but there is definitely some economy of story at work here that does work. Sometimes.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

You know, I was disappointed they killed him off at first. His interactions with Nyneave and her judgmental stares always amused me. BUT killing him off and making him Gaidal was a nice concise way to communicate how heroes are spun out and live lives without being aware of their past. So when Birgitte shows up later, we now have a face to the one she's longing for.

I'm not thrilled with all of the changes to the show, but there is definitely some economy of story at work here that does work. Sometimes.

I thought it was pretty hilarious. The guy pointlessly blusters like an idiot, predictably gets killed off achieving nothing at all, and then turns out to be one of the very few legendary heroes of the Horn.

[Maia]

 

On 10/17/2023 at 10:00 PM, SpaceChampion said:

The likely scenario is the ter'angreal cache is in Falme, and a bunch of Black Ajah + Moggy abscond with what they can grab, leading to Nynaeve and Elayne going there.

 

Said stash being Turak's extensive collection of curiosities, which has been name-dropped previously. The first redstone frame could be part of it, even, if they chose to include it. 

 

13 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I mean, a lot of characters should have died along the way and not be carried into the Last Battle so we didn't have to have so many check ins as we go. Be ruthless - kill characters!

 

Which is why I hope that they have the guts to let Moiraine and Lanfear die for good if they implement the ter'angrial dive. IMHO, their returns didn't actually amount to much in the series and were ultimately disappointing  - let Moiraine's sacrifice and achievement stand! And yes, I know that she is a main character in the show - but it is still possible to kill one when it makes sense in the post-GoT era. In fact, I wish that more main characters had died in WoT so that the dangers felt real.

Ishy, OTOH, should be an exception. It was genuinely frightening when tDO's ability to bring back FS was revealed in the books - and while it was ultimately a waste for everyone else,  it worked beautifully for Ishy/Moridin. 

[Gertrude]

10 hours ago, Maia said:

Which is why I hope that they have the guts to let Moiraine and Lanfear die for good if they implement the ter'angrial dive. IMHO, their returns didn't actually amount to much in the series and were ultimately disappointing

If they do bring them back, I at least want them to make Moiraine's return mean something. As you said, it was underwhelming in the books. If they only do just what was in the book, then yeah, let her stay dead. Also, I would have loved it if she didn't conveniently have an angreal that made her super strong, so why did her power level drain even matter? Oh look, theoretically a bad thing happens but not really because this fixes it and everyone gets a happy ending. The End. (yes, I know not everyone got a happy ending, but most people pretty much did and were temporarily inconvenienced by the Last Battle. Oh, someone died? Well, not many of them and if they did, so did their SO - so don't worry, no one is grieving too terribly much.)

Edited October 20, 2023 by Gertrude

[Maia]

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Also, I would have loved it if she didn't conveniently have an angreal that made her super strong, so why did her power level drain even matter?

 

Well, if she had returned earlier, it would have mattered and could have sparked off a very much needed plotline of the overthrow of the strength hierarchy among the AS. If Sanderson had chosen to make her, rather than Cadsuane the post-TG Amyrlin there could have still been a hint towards that happening... But nope.  It presumably also affected her life-span and slowly depleting her power was  a means for the Finn to make her suffer. Without an angreal her return would have been even more lacklustre, if possible, because she'd have had even less to contribute. But the weird similarity between the fates of Moiraine and Siuan - both de-powered and matched with crusty old men, Morgase's ex-lovers, likely stems from them having been initially conceived as a single character - a female Merlin, not Gandalf and then split.

 

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I know not everyone got a happy ending, but most people pretty much did and were temporarily inconvenienced by the Last Battle.

 

Yes, that was very underwhelming. "Remnant of the remnant will he save and they shall live"? Pfft, vast majority  lives. I know that Rand somehow surviving was established early with the prophecies, cryptic utterances of the Finn, etc, but for me it felt like cheating, and even more so that none of the 3 superboys died. If not Rand or Mat, who had to stay around because of the Seanchan, then it should have been Perrin. Much as I love Lan, he should have died too. Funny how sheathing the sword is never actually terminal. And Cadsuane?! She should have been toast. Don't start me on the Seanchan, who haven't even been seriously strained by the Last Battle. Or the fact that the Shadow didn't attack everywhere to make people want to rush back and fill them with despair.

Sadly, the ridiculous survival rates among the main cast can't be blamed on Sanderson, since it was Jordan's intention. The 3 boys all being his self-insert really screwed up the ending of the story he envisioned, IMHO. But he was also considering to have Egwene burn out while being pregnant with Gawyn's child and subsequently  marry Galad, so it doesn't seem like he intended to kill anyone important. IIRC the few deaths that happened were all from Sanderson.

Re: Uno, I am not a fan of him being a Hero of the Horn, though I understand that they wanted to demonstrate how it all works, but in the books we were told that not all lives the Heroes lived had to be extraordinary.

P.S. Frankly, in the show I doubt that they can have Moiraine return in such a way that it doesn't feel cheap. There just aren't enough episodes.  Besides, she has already been de-powered, going back there would feel repetitive.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Maia

[IFR]

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Re: Uno, I am not a fan of him being a Hero of the Horn, though I understand that they wanted to demonstrate how it all works, but in the books we were told that not all lives the Heroes lived had to be extraordinary.

It may have said that in the books. From a storytelling standpoint, however, this is clearly the case of the writers demonstrating their pattern of approach to the show: the rule of cool, even if it doesn't make sense upon any kind of consideration.

The dumbest warrior the audience has been acquainted with, whose stupid defiance of the Seanchan even the other characters watched in disbelief, turns out to be the exact kind of material needed to be a hero of the Horn, of which we see a dozen or so.

I mean, it's fine if people like it. But it's not smart writing. This isn't Succession or Game of Thrones (early seasons obviously; it would fit in perfectly with the final season). This is Fast and the Furious writing. The audience can say "Hey, there's that one guy!" and clap at how cool it is to recognize someone.

[Gertrude]

Uno didn't bother me. Uno seemed to me one of the lives that Gaidal lived not being extraordinary. Yeah, Uno didn't do much, but his stupid defiance was a form of his heroics leaking through. He didn't bow down to the conquerors. Also his sacrifice (that he didn't know he would be making) saved other lives by being the demonstration.

I didn't love it, but it was fine.

  

5 hours ago, IFR said:

This isn't Succession or Game of Thrones (early seasons obviously; it would fit in perfectly with the final season). This is Fast and the Furious writing. The audience can say "Hey, there's that one guy!" and clap at how cool it is to recognize someone.

I mean, have you read the source material?

Edited October 20, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

6 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I mean, have you read the source material?

Sometimes I wonder. Anyway I think it was an effective show of how being heroic can immortalize you as a hero. I like the actor a bunch and it should set up well in the future with Birgitte. Also as a shout out to the book fans it does nicely tie in with the compliments she kept giving Uno. Uno is the type of guy Birgitte likes so him as Gaidal makes sense.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I mean, have you read the source material?

I think you do Jordan a disservice. A lot of the series was ponderous, and there were many frustrating elements, but I don't consider The Wheel of Time on the level of Fast and the Furious. Robert Jordan may not be George RR Martin, but I think it discredits his writing to put him on that level.

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Anyway I think it was an effective show of how being heroic can immortalize you as a hero.

I guess? I'm sure a lot of people blustered impotently against the Seanchan and were killed as a result. Maybe Uno's impotent blustering, as a hero of the Pattern, was extra savory and that set him apart?

But it's all subjective, so if it works for you, it works for you.