karaddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I'm not sure the connection actually makes that much sense, but I'm also not sure it needs to lol. Why does crossing streams of balefire link the souls of the people that wove it? I guess if each balefire is trying to undo the other balefire it can do something funky, but would it happen if they were both saidin balefire? What about saidin and saidar balefire? Or is it just some weird fluke of saidin + TP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 They’ve already spelled out Ishy as the leader of the forsaken and Lews Therin’s main rival. They played up the triangle of him, Lanfear and Lews. They can’t just give those to another character. They’ve already filmed those scenes. I’m not sure why you want to get rid of him. One the actor has been fantastic and two it doesn’t make sense from both what they’ve filmed and what the story is. Question what do they gain by not bringing him back? Wouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 16 minutes ago, Gertrude said: OK - so leadership is the main one and then the connection to the True Power. I do think those can be written in some other ways if they decide to. I'm just trying to figure out if it's Ishy that needs to do these things, or if these are just things that need to be done. But where does that end? Obviously, you can give actions from some characters to others. But too much of what Moridin does doesn't make sense without his motives. And if you're going to give someone else his motives and his actions, why not let it be him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Arakasi said: Question what do they gain by not bringing him back? Trust that when a Forsaken dies they are actually dead. I don't think its worth it in this case, but that's not negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 1 minute ago, karaddin said: Trust that when a Forsaken dies they are actually dead. I don't think its worth it in this case, but that's not negligible. Lanfear's recovery already somewhat screwed that up, no? Wouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: Lanfear's recovery already somewhat screwed that up, no? I took that scene more as you needed to do more to kill her. Heck Moiraine even flat out tells Rand that it will take more than that to kill Lanfear. So no I don’t think they’ve played the baddie come back from dead card yet. If Moiraine had thought that would kill her she wouldn’t have taken off running. That scene more evoked T2 where you couldn’t kill the T1000 then any actual death being involved. Edited October 17, 2023 by Arakasi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yeah what Arakasi said. As I said back at the time of that episode, if the person would survive in the real world if we could magically fix their wounds immediately then they hadn't experienced brain death and I'm assuming soul death in the series occurs at or after that point. She may have been temporarily unconscious but she wasn't out for long enough she couldn't have been resuscitated (given the aforementioned magic wound healing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I imagine over the next couple years we’ll see things like balefire or other things to knock off a couple forsaken and then at some point Ishy will come back. As for the Lanfear scene yes us book readers take the explanation with the Saa as the true power being used. However Moiraine doesn’t know anything about that and just flat out tells Rand she can’t kill a forsaken that easily and that they need to run. At that point it doesn’t matter when the explanation is because Moiraine has told the audience that Lanfear is not dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Didn't Ishy tell Fain that the Dark One had given Lanfear the gift of immortal life? That indicated to me that she might be special in that way (which honestly, I kinda don't like, but considering her fate with the doors and Sandersons' reveal about her, it kinda fits. maybe). @fionwe1987 Yeah, I get that just mixing and matching can go too far, but how do thy bring Ishy back now without it feeling like a cop out? I think transmigration just doesn't make sense for the show - why off him if you're just going to bring him back but with a less charismatic actor (because Fares Fares was KILLING it). If you have that particular card, why not just use it over and over - and really, didn't Jordan already kind of over use it? It was one of my least favorite concepts presented in the books. Like I said, I am just coming to accept that Ishy is gone from the show. If he isn't, then I am at a loss for how they depicted his demise. Dust seems final - no body. If it's an illusion, it's a god-damned good one as Rand would have felt the resistance when he stabbed him. His final words felt genuine. I think it would just feel cheap to bring him back at this point. I could come around if it's written well, but I'm not expecting it. Which Tyler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 7 hours ago, Gertrude said: Didn't Ishy tell Fain that the Dark One had given Lanfear the gift of immortal life? That indicated to me that she might be special in that way (which honestly, I kinda don't like, but considering her fate with the doors and Sandersons' reveal about her, it kinda fits. maybe). @fionwe1987 Yeah, I get that just mixing and matching can go too far, but how do thy bring Ishy back now without it feeling like a cop out? I think transmigration just doesn't make sense for the show - why off him if you're just going to bring him back but with a less charismatic actor (because Fares Fares was KILLING it). If you have that particular card, why not just use it over and over - and really, didn't Jordan already kind of over use it? It was one of my least favorite concepts presented in the books. Like I said, I am just coming to accept that Ishy is gone from the show. If he isn't, then I am at a loss for how they depicted his demise. Dust seems final - no body. If it's an illusion, it's a god-damned good one as Rand would have felt the resistance when he stabbed him. His final words felt genuine. I think it would just feel cheap to bring him back at this point. I could come around if it's written well, but I'm not expecting it. I agree with your opinion on Ishy's end scene, yet at the same time I think there is still room to bring him back, either as Fares or another actor. We could have a dark Gandalf moment - sent back until his task is done. This could be unique to Ishy - he is the DO's champion, the Nae'blis (which hopefully is a term that gets mentioned in the future) while the other Forsaken are just useful servants, protected in a limited way with the True Power, but deluded in thinking they can become #1. It might make the character even more compelling because he might realize that the DO won't give him the reprieve he was hoping to achieve. In the case of utilizing another actor, we could get a Fares Fares cameo showing that the new character is Ishy reborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 The speculation about bringing back Fares sent me down the WoT wiki rabbit hole. This line in Ishamael's bio was something I don't remember from the books: Quote It was noted afterwards that his body decayed to dust almost immediately after his death, likely due to it having been ravaged by Ishamael's use of the True Power. That could be the show explanation too about why the dagger makes him decay so fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yeah we I don’t think are going to see him dying in Tear. This replaces that. But I am still 99.9% sure he’s coming back and likely as the same actor. (Not as sure on that part) Myrddin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Agreed, Arakasi. They bought in elements of both Falme and Tear duels in this finale, so no need to repeat Ishy as the season finale Boss Fight another time. Tear/Callendor will likely be about Sammael or Bael or somebody else instead, and much later in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I can see a few routes the writers might take regarding Ishamael. 1) He really is dead. This actually is possible. Perhaps the writers feel like Lanfear or Graendal or someone else will make a more compelling villain. Ishamael is not the only one capable of a nihilistic philosophy, and so this can be used on Rand in some other form. 2) Ishamael returns. Who knows how this will be approached. I think if they go this route, it's more likely he'll be resurrected as a woman and channel saidar, going with the gender neutral expression of the soul - that souls are male and female. As for what this means for saidin and saidar and its relation to gendered souls, this is completely nonsensical, but I don't think the writers particularly care. Ishamael could also return in a different manner. Ishamael could end up as part of Rand's madness, too, and the converstions with Ishamael will essentially signify Rand's increasing insanity as he grows closer to the dark side. Ishamael having planted the seed, as it were. 3) It was all an illusion and Ishamael didn't die. Cheesy and cheap, but the writers are capable of this. After all, if Jordan can have fake Ishamael deaths, they can as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I think they’ll bring in another male forsaken, he’ll grmet beat, and Ishamael will appear at the end of thr season as a twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yeah pretty much. Basically we need Moghedien to be beaten by Nyneave and likely Rahvin by Rand. Then they can bring him back. Big question to me is what are they doing with Lanfear. Cyndane just never really worked so I’m curious what they’re going to do with her. She is a good example of a forsaken who doesn’t need to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 43 minutes ago, Arakasi said: Yeah pretty much. Basically we need Moghedien to be beaten by Nyneave and likely Rahvin by Rand. Then they can bring him back. Big question to me is what are they doing with Lanfear. Cyndane just never really worked so I’m curious what they’re going to do with her. She is a good example of a forsaken who doesn’t need to come back. Or go away. She's captured, not killed, initially. The Dark One kills her himself, as punishment, and I think they can just skip that and bring her back as a slightly weakened channeler. Wouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 They are clearly setting up a Lanfear and Moiraine conflict. Just curious how it will differ from the books. Do we lose both for multiple seasons especially when one is the lead actor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 On 10/15/2023 at 8:09 PM, SpaceChampion said: Certainly that's just being delayed to a later season, not skipped. Season 3 locations: Tanchico, Caemlyn, Rhuidean, Two Rivers. Cultures: Tarabon, Sea Folk, Aiel, Andor. Seems pretty stuffed to me. I missed this in the thread and just saw the Hollywood Reporter article. I guess all who predicted no Tear and Callandor next season were right. sigh I am pleased that Tanchico is going to be included and I suppose it will allow the Seanchan to remain relevant to the story in season 3. I suspect the band will break up in Falme, and Nynaeve and Elayne will travel directly to Tanchico by a Sea Folk ship, which geographically makes sense. With Moghedien in Falme, maybe she'll do something that causes Moiraine to want to investigate Tanchico, but she can't go herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 There was a wotup vid today and there was a script leak with Coulladin that looks straight from the books. Also confirmed that the season only covers book 4. So presumably it ends with the fight with Asmodean there in Rhuidean. Wouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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