Israel - Hamas War 2

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Gorn said:

I won't try to justify anything else, but power grids are a valid military target in warfare (see NATO bombing of Serbia, both Iraq wars, WWII, etc). Electricity is a dual-use resource. And the same power grid supplies the hospital and the tunnels with munitions, there is no way to strike one without affecting the other.

Except they're also denying fuel or any supplies reaching the hospital, so I really don't buy that.

The electricity denial also hasn't stopped the shooting of rockets either. So even if you do want to talk about it being useful there it's not been effective in this instance either.

[Altherion]

15 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

So is it your theory then that, due to pressure from the US, Netanyahu will order IDF to stop what they are doing, at some point, and restore food and electricity? And then what? Will Hamas be gone and the problem thus be resolved?

No, the Israelis will continue to go after Hamas -- I don't think they can stop now short of catastrophic failure of some sort. However, if they exceed the patience of the US, they will have to do so without the siege and such.

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

The main reason large amounts of people in Gaza would die is because of Hamas. They keep provoking attacks and then use their own people as shields and often times won't let them leave. Address that first before saying anything else. 

And then also talk in depth about how they use the funds they have for weapons instead of water/food and to build Gaza up. 

Wow, I didn't know that Hamas was the ones flying the Israeli planes and launching Israeli missiles. I also didn't know it was Hamas that had imposed a blockade on Gaza. Is it Hamas that murdered numerous Palestinians in the West Bank and then attacked the funeral? Oh wait no, that was Israel and in the last instance it was their criminal settlers who carry out crimes with impunity because they are protected by the IDF.

How many palestinians have to die to sate your bloodlust? Do we have to do 20-1 as has been the case since 2008?

You're excusing of Israeli genocide, you're excusing Israeli apartheid and you clearly only consider one side to be victims here. I hope one day you look back at your reaction to the atrocities that have been committed by both sides this week and redden with shame when you recognize your heartlessness.

[Gorn]

Just now, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Except they're also denying fuel or any supplies reaching the hospital, so I really don't buy that.

The electricity denial also hasn't stopped the shooting of rockets either. So even if you do want to talk about it being useful there it's not been effective in this instance either.

Fuel is a military resource even more so than electricity, and if you think Hamas won't seize the hospital's fuel for use in their vehicles, I don't know what to tell you. You seem to have a pretty naive view of what war means, and I say this as someone who lived through almost four years of one.

[dbergkvist]

7 minutes ago, Altherion said:

No, the Israelis will continue to go after Hamas -- I don't think they can stop now short of catastrophic failure of some sort. However, if they exceed the patience of the US, they will have to do so without the siege and such.

So there are other ways to go after Hamas, other than a siege? I.e. the siege is an unnecessary, optional, war crime. Good to have that cleared out.

But despite the fact that Netanyahu is carrying out this unnecessary mass murder of civilians, the fact that he's still doing it, is not evidence that he is planning to murder all of them.

Edited October 13, 2023 by dbergkvist

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I didn't know that Hamas was the ones flying the Israeli planes and launching Israeli missiles.

Do you think Israeli planes and missiles just show up for fun and giggles? What are they responding to?

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I also didn't know it was Hamas that had imposed a blockade on Gaza.

Why is there a blockade? What has caused Egypt, Israel, _and the Palestinian Authority and Fatah_ to support blockades against Gaza? What is the blockade in response to?

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yes, we are living in different worlds, because Hamas says they want the death and destruction of Jews, then just carried out the worst single attack on Jews since the Holocaust and you want to make this about Jews wanting to kill every Palestinian. That's fucked up, full stop.  

No full stop here, sorry.
Yes, it is in fact rather fucked up to demand that the victim of an unspeakable tragedy behave exemplarily. And most people, in most cases, will not demand this.
But in this case we're talking about the response of a modern Western State with a powerful military. We do tend to expect more from those.
Then, we're talking about a State with a history of human rights violations. We'd like those to stop to be able to fully support the actions it is taking.
And then we're talking about a State whose people have been despised and hated for centuries at least. It would be nice to avoid fueling or legitimising that hatred in any way.
Is it fucked up? Yeah, actually, I do agree with you that it is. Doesn't change much though. The world will be hard on Israel today, because Israel got away with a lot in the past. That is Netanyahu's doing, and it's terrible for Israel's future.
 

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, Gorn said:

You seem to have a pretty naive view of what war means,

Yes war is hard and difficult. let’s still not do war crimes that may kill tens or even under the worst outcomes hundreds of thousands of civilians and displace over a million people most of which are children.

 

[Rippounet]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why is there a blockade?

I'd really like to know actually, because I truly don't see the military merits.

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Do you think Israeli planes and missiles just show up for fun and giggles? What are they responding to?

Kind of the same here actually. I'd like to be certain that all the targets do have military value, because I'm starting to read in several places that they don't.

I truly hope someone can provide us with the answers to that, or we might have to conclude that, ath this point at least, the entire operation's primary purpose is to punish the Palestinians rather than to dismantle Hamas.

[Ran]

I genuinely would prefer if people don't push conspiracy theories that can be construed as antisemitic secret cabal nonsense. Talking of secret policies of the elite or whatever... well, it leaves a very bad taste, and is not a good look.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lol, modern history.

What does that mean? Like most of the developed world, the world in general? Like gimme polls? 
All of it? 

[Gorn]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes war is hard and difficult. let’s still not do war crimes that may kill tens or even under the worst outcomes hundreds of thousands of civilians and displace over a million people most of which are children.

 

The whole point of displacing civilians to get them out of harm's way and the active warzone. I wish someone had "displaced" me and my family back in the 90s, it would have been preferable to the alternative.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Gorn

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Fuel is a military resource even more so than electricity, and if you think Hamas won't seize the hospital's fuel for use in their vehicles, I don't know what to tell you. You seem to have a pretty naive view of what war means, and I say this as someone who lived through almost four years of one.

I don't think they will because in this case Hamas largely has no actual vehicles to use. This isn't like Stalingrad. What, do you think Hamas has a number of tanks waiting around? 

Again the important point is that your statement - that Israel is denying military useful resources to the enemy to degrade their power - is made pointless because it has not stopped Hamas from doing anything. This is not the kind of war where you need to make sure that the enemy has no access to oil. It is again security theater. 

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Do you think Israeli planes and missiles just show up for fun and giggles? What are they responding to?

A political show of force. 

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why is there a blockade? What has caused Egypt, Israel, _and the Palestinian Authority and Fatah_ to support blockades against Gaza? What is the blockade in response to?

Wait - are you asking about the blockade that's been in place since Hamas took power, or the total cutting off of all resources to Gaza? The two are not the same. 

[Gorn]

1 minute ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I don't think they will because in this case Hamas largely has no actual vehicles to use. This isn't like Stalingrad. What, do you think Hamas has a number of tanks waiting around? 

Again the important point is that your statement - that Israel is denying military useful resources to the enemy to degrade their power - is made pointless because it has not stopped Hamas from doing anything. This is not the kind of war where you need to make sure that the enemy has no access to oil. It is again security theater. 

 

They have cars and trucks, which are used for moving troops and supplies from point A from point B.

Again, your premise is that one side in a warfare has an ethical obligation to provide dual-use resources to the other side (and to be clear, I am not talking about food and water), which is ridiculous. And Israel and Gaza are currently in a shooting war with each other. I say Gaza, because Hamas is the government and sole authority in Gaza.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Gorn said:

Again, your premise is that one side in a warfare has an ethical obligation to provide dual-use resources to the other side (and to be clear, I am not talking about food and water

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Wait - are you asking about the blockade that's been in place since Hamas took power, or the total cutting off of all resources to Gaza? The two are not the same. 

The former, obviously, not the latter. Though, frankly, I do not know what the PA has said about the present blockade other than Abbas telling Secretary Blinken that there should be humanitarian corridors (which sort of implies he's okay with the concept of the blockade in general, so long as efforts are made to help the civilian population).

 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Gorn said:

They have cars and trucks, which are used for moving troops and supplies from point A from point B.

Which they don't use because they'll be tracked. Hamas uses their tunnels without cars because of seismic sensors that can detect that behavior. They don't move troops that way either. Again, we're talking about an area of 125 square miles that has more surface surveillance than London. Hamas hasn't been using those kinds of movements for over a decade. 

1 minute ago, Gorn said:

Again, your premise is that one side in a warfare has an ethical obligation to provide dual-use resources to the other side (and to be clear, I am not talking about food and water), which is ridiculous. And Israel and Gaza are currently in a shooting war with each other. I say Gaza, because Hamas is the government and sole authority in Gaza.

I think it's not that easy to quantify and anyone who makes it purely reductive is not thinking rationally or reasonably. 

I think that if you could make a reasonable case that denying electricity or fuel is actually useful for hurting the military effectiveness of Hamas then you should make it. But the notion of transport across an area 25 miles long and 5 miles wide when the enemy doesn't use that mode of transportation regularly is ridiculous. Denying electricity with the idea that it stops rocket attacks when the rocket attacks have continued is again clearly wrong. And, as you say, none of that justifies stopping food or water getting in - so what exactly is your point? That one small piece should be vaguely okay? 

I'll make the point slightly differently: whatever benefit is there in denying Gaza electricity is almost certainly obliterated by the political hit of having doctors unable to treat children of their wounds and broadcast this again and again on western media. The PR is simply not worth it. 

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

The former, obviously, not the latter. Though, frankly, I do not know what the PA has said about the present blockade other than Abbas telling Secretary Blinken that there should be humanitarian corridors (which sort of implies he's okay with the concept of the blockade in general, so long as efforts are made to help the civilian population).

 

Yeah, okay. I think @GrimTuesday wasn't talking about the general blockade, but the more recent cutting off of all resources entirely. I could be wrong though. It's unfortunate because the language is imprecise here. While the blockade has a lot of problems in general and contributes significantly to Gazan poverty it also clearly has had military significance and has successfully stopped a number of munitions from entering the area; I don't think it's reasonable to say that that is wrong (and as you say it has significant support from basically everyone in the region including the Palestinian authority). 

[Gorn]

7 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Which they don't use because they'll be tracked. Hamas uses their tunnels without cars because of seismic sensors that can detect that behavior. They don't move troops that way either. Again, we're talking about an area of 125 square miles that has more surface surveillance than London. Hamas hasn't been using those kinds of movements for over a decade. 

I think it's not that easy to quantify and anyone who makes it purely reductive is not thinking rationally or reasonably. 

I think that if you could make a reasonable case that denying electricity or fuel is actually useful for hurting the military effectiveness of Hamas then you should make it. But the notion of transport across an area 25 miles long and 5 miles wide when the enemy doesn't use that mode of transportation regularly is ridiculous. Denying electricity with the idea that it stops rocket attacks when the rocket attacks have continued is again clearly wrong. And, as you say, none of that justifies stopping food or water getting in - so what exactly is your point? That one small piece should be vaguely okay? 

I'll make the point slightly differently: whatever benefit is there in denying Gaza electricity is almost certainly obliterated by the political hit of having doctors unable to treat children of their wounds and broadcast this again and again on western media. The PR is simply not worth it. 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Simultaneously, around 2,500 Palestinian militants infiltrated Israel from Gaza using trucks, pickup trucks, motorcycles, bulldozers, speedboats and paragliders.

Everything on that list, except for paragliders, uses fuel. Hamas isn't fighting with bows and arrows.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Gorn

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Gorn said:

except for paragliders

The paragliders were of the motorized type, and also use fuel.