Israel - Hamas War 2

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

No, it does not. In fact, it's the very opposite: the objectives of Hamas are now totally irrelevant to the current situation, i.e. the slaughter of thousands of trapped Palestinians.

Totally irrelevant? Way to just excuse what they did and how any nation would respond to a serious terrorist attack. I don't care about anything else you wrote. This is the problem in this thread, the total bypass of what Hamas did and their overall objective of killing every Jew in Israel. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Most people dislike Israel and their government. Let's not argue this. 

Let’s. Source?

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They can't realistically.

So the warning was theatre, a thing they think point to show they acted lawfully when they enacted a campaign of mass death.

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

and I doubt they'll go into them and massacre people who are hiding there, unlike Hamas, who attacked people and slaughtered them with joy.

 

The method of execution doesn’t matter so much to the dead does it?

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why let them attack people in your country without responding?

You can respond without war crimes and mass death.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is the problem in this thread, the total bypass of what Hamas

Hamas bad.

[Maithanet]

I don't think anyone has posted this, but this is the best writeup I've seen on the events of the past weeks.

IMO the most important part:

Quote

Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

 

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Darryk said:

They prevent Gaza civilians from escaping to the South, and surely the onus is more on them to help their fellow Arabs then on Israel?

I don't see why the onus is on another country to stave off a disaster that was created by another. And there are far more Palestinians living in Israel than there are in Egypt. This is equivalent to saying that Poland has an equal obligation to Russia as far as Ukraine goes. 

Also note that a lot of the policy choices Egypt is making is at Israel's request. Israel would be pretty pissed off if hamas escaped from Gaza into Egypt. Egypt had enforced the borders partially - well, likely mostly - out of a desire to not have to deal with an angry refugee group, but also because they want better relations with the US and Israel and Israel does not want any country normalizing relations with Hamas.

Also also, just noting for the record that Egypt is not a majority Arab country and in fact Israel has more of an Arab population than Egypt does. (Egypt is ethnically majority north African).

Edited October 13, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[Darryk]

Interesting point made by the Israeli historian Benny Morris on a recent podcast; If Israel had given the West Bank back to Jordan instead of occupying it in 1967, could most of these issues have been avoided?

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Interesting point made by the Israeli historian Benny Morris on a recent podcast; If Israel had given the West Bank back to Jordan instead of occupying it in 1967, could most of these issues have been avoided?

I don't see how. 

One of the major effects that the 1967 war had was to show Palestinians that a military victory against Israel was very unlikely to occur. That led to the more current thought of constant resistance,  terroris. and trying to shift world opinion. Giving Jordan that area would still leave Gaza in the hands of Israel (and given the history there's no way in hell they would have given it back to Egypt, who was the primary instigator of the fighting) and would still leave the people there hosed.

That's one of the more important things to understand here. Many Palestinians fled to Jordan in 1967 and the west Bank wasn't that densely populated, and the nabka hadn't touched it as much. Most of the people in Gaza were there because they had to leave what is now Israel, since 1948. Jordan didn't want even more refugees that weren't their population to start, and the population they did absorb already destabilized Jordan. 

I mean, is the proposal they're making to send the (at that point) 1 million refugees of Gaza to the West Bank under Jordanian rule and ethnically cleanse gaza?

[Tywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Let’s. Source?

Lol, modern history.

Quote

You can respond without war crimes and mass death.

How would you do it then, factoring in the places you're being attacked from are highly populated and the people attacking you are using them as meat shields? It's not an easy answer.

21 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Interesting point made by the Israeli historian Benny Morris on a recent podcast; If Israel had given the West Bank back to Jordan instead of occupying it in 1967, could most of these issues have been avoided?

Not really, so long as anti-Semitism in the region is the norm. 

[Kalbear]

This also illustrates what seems lost to history by a lot of folks - that the US managed to negotiate a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt after 30 years of war that has lasted for 40 years and has resulted in Egypt actively cooperating with Israel in dealing with stabilization. The amount of soft power there is remarkable.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Not only are you illiterate, don’t read other peopes’s posts, didn’t follow the conversation about whether or not the the number of dead being reported would or would not include Hamas soldiers

I've been through all the posts between your post that I quoted and that post of mine, both when I made that post and just now. There is no indication of what you know or think other than the posts you have made. You have not liked these posts or given any indication of what you think of them. There was no reason for me to think you had a different opinion when I made that post.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[polishgenius]

I'm gonna give Craving Peaches some bonus points for not turning into a fucking fascist every time a war breaks out.

 

 

 

Awesome. And, as has been said in this topic, this kind of rhetoric is in part exactly what Hamas wanted to provoke. 

 

[Rippounet]

54 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Totally irrelevant? Way to just excuse what they did and how any nation would respond to a serious terrorist attack. I don't care about anything else you wrote.

Right. So you're basically condoning pretty much anything in the name of fighting terrorism, up to and including genocide.

Or, to put it differently, you will actively support state terrorism if it is done in the name of fighting terrorism.

And no, "any nation" will not respond to a terrorist attack by targeting civilians and children. In fact, and to put it bluntly and clearly, a nation that can keep building itself through such policies should lose international recognition and be designated a rogue terrorist State operating outside the consensus on international law and morality.

[Zorral]

I too saw the Towers come down on 9/11, and from far closer than in Brooklyn, but a 15 minute walk away -- I know because I walked it all the time going to work in the Fraunces Tavern Museum, which was below that.  I am still traumatized -- though not so much by that sight, but by what happened afterwards to this country collectively losing its mind and going all yellow cake and the rest.  Hundreds of thousands of us who were directly affected by 9/11 (our neighborhood was closed off for weeks by the military -- though very ineffectively --and I suffer respiratory problems from that air -- having nowhere to go to escape it), yet we marched to demand the US NOT INVADE Iraq.

Life has never been the same here.  There was never any going back to normal for us.  YET WE ALL PROTESTED AGAINST THAT STUPID QUAQMIRE THAT THE FASCISTS AND THEIR OIL GREEDY WAR CRIMINAL CORRUPT CRONIES PUSHED US INTO -- WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND YELLOW CAKE!  

We have never forgotten it.  Evidently most others have, when they advocate in favor of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

 

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

this is a very stressful situation for everyone

It certainly is for me, for so many reasons, including not even having heard from several of our Israeli friends -- and then our Jewish friends here who have relatives there -- and various friends here who, if not Palestinians themselves, have family who have married Palestinians.  

And everything else that is going on in this country and the world.

I had nightmares last night -- and I am physically as safe as it is possible for anyone to be safe as a human being in These Times.

BTW -- the Israeli friends who I have heard from -- they didn't support Bibi and his government's actions before, and they do not now.  (Partner is out of the country, in a place where communications are undependable at best, so he doesn't really know what all is happening, so I don't have that mutual support and reassurance which we tend to depend on.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Zorral

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

They can't realistically. However, Israel did try to give them a chance to get to the shelters and I doubt they'll go into them and massacre people who are hiding there, unlike Hamas, who attacked people and slaughtered them with joy

oh you doubt it do you, jfc its like we are living in different worlds, they bombed refugee camps in one of those they killed a family of ten people. there are a million videos and accounts of israeli soldiers killing inocent civilians with joy. 

hamas is horrible, the killing of inocent civilans by hamas is horrible.

[Conflicting Thought]

46 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How would you do it then, factoring in the places you're being attacked from are highly populated and the people attacking you are using them as meat shields? It's not an easy answer.

i suposse is not an easy answer for some, but to you it seems that the answer is pretty simple, keep doing what they are doing until everyone in gaza is dead

[Tywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

i suposse is not an easy answer for some, but to you it seems that the answer is pretty simple, keep doing what they are doing until everyone in gaza is dead

The main reason large amounts of people in Gaza would die is because of Hamas. They keep provoking attacks and then use their own people as shields and often times won't let them leave. Address that first before saying anything else. 

And then also talk in depth about how they use the funds they have for weapons instead of water/food and to build Gaza up. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Tywin et al.]

47 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Right. So you're basically condoning pretty much anything in the name of fighting terrorism, up to and including genocide.

Which side says they want the other to die and be wiped out? 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Which side says they want the other to die and be wiped out? 

Apparently both.

[Zorral]

If you are seeing the two sides as Hamas and Bibi and his supporter factions, then the answer is 'both sides.'  As you well know.

Like NYers generally, we did want the perpetrators of 9/11 to be brought to justice and punished, but instead things got deflected, particularly as Bush & Co. were so anxious and assiduous to get the Saudis, safely out of the US and back to their fortresses, and what we as a city and nation NEEDED to do to support USA was to go shopping.  With our credit cards.  I have never gotten over the shock of those billboards that almost immediately went up in our neighborhood on the top of the buildings there at the intersections of West Broadway and Broome streets, with a grinning Bush holding up Mastercards and saying, "Go Shopping!"