Israel - Hamas War 2

[House Balstroko]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be the statement beaten into everyone's head. Hamas openly says it wants to kill every Jew. Every. Single. One. And once they got power they set out to do such. So stop both sidings this shit. The Israeli government has done a lot of fucked up shit, but they're not comparable to Hamas and yet some people here seem to have more sympathy for a terrorist organization than the people they explicitly have stated they want to murder and just did. JFC. 

I’ll be the first to say that I think Israel is far better than Hamas and practically every Arab country in a lot of ways. That being said, there is zero justification for the complete blockade of Gaza. That is a massive war crime. 
 

By the same token, as a non-American, I think the US is far better than Russia and China, which doesn’t negate the fact that the country has committed a ton of atrocities. 

[Conflicting Thought]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be the statement beaten into everyone's head. Hamas openly says it wants to kill every Jew. Every. Single. One. And once they got power they set out to do such. So stop both sidings this shit. The Israeli government has done a lot of fucked up shit, but they're not comparable to Hamas and yet some people here seem to have more sympathy for a terrorist organization than the people they explicitly have stated they want to murder and just did. JFC. 

no, we dont have more sympathy for hamas, we have sympathy for the INNOCENT civilians HALF of the population of 2.5 millions are KIDS. and yes they are not comparable since the israeli goverment is responsible for so much more horrible shit for so much longer that comparing the two is insulting. they fucking helped hamas rise to power, and their policies along the decades just push more people to join hamas. if palestine was in the place of israel, doing the things israel has done for more than 20 years you wouldnt be saying this.

edited to say because a guess it has to be said in every single response to this threads that i think hamas is a horrible organization that should not exist.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Conflicting Thought

[karaddin]

11 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

you would never see this kind of disingenuous bullshit on the ukrain thread...denying genocidal practices is disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourself

You might want to clarify which poster that was directed to as Tywin's post came in just before yours but I suspect you were speaking to the discussion above that. I don't think anything Tywin has said has been in support of retaliating against civilians in Gaza. I know your subsequent reply directly to Tywin implies this wasn't directed at him but still.

I used to hope that Hamas were just holding that "goal" out as something to be given away in negotiating an actual peace but they're not getting any good faith assumption from me at this point. Fuck them. None of the discussion about who has power in and around Gaza extends to giving them a pass for an attack like this. 

[Tywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

I’ll be the first to say that I think Israel is far better than Hamas and practically every Arab country in a lot of ways. That being said, there is zero justification for the complete blockade of Gaza. That is a massive war crime. 

The blockade is wrong, no debate there.

4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

no, we dont have more sympathy for hamas, we have sympathy for the INNOCENT civilians HALF of the population of 2.5 millions are KIDS. and yes they are not comparable since the israeli goverment is responsible for so much more horrible shit for so much longer that comparing the two is insulting. they fucking helped hamas rise to power, and their policies along the decades just push more people to join hamas. if palestine was in the place of israel, doing the things israel has done for more than 20 years you wouldnt be saying this

And there's the pivot again, which says everything I need to know. 

[Conflicting Thought]

sorry but they have killed 500 hundred, five hundred...five hundred children in like 3 days. the killed five hundred children in 2011 500! how many kids did they killed in the period of 2011 until today?

[Conflicting Thought]

Just now, karaddin said:

You might want to clarify which poster that was directed to as Tywin's post came in just before yours but I suspect you were speaking to the discussion above that. I don't think anything Tywin has said has been in support of retaliating against civilians in Gaza. I know your subsequent reply directly to Tywin implies this wasn't directed at him but still.

I used to hope that Hamas were just holding that "goal" out as something to be given away in negotiating an actual peace but they're not getting any good faith assumption from me at this point. Fuck them. None of the discussion about who has power in and around Gaza extends to giving them a pass for an attack like this. 

the part about genocide is directed at ran and others like him like jace

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

sorry but they have killed 500 hundred, five hundred...five hundred children in like 3 days. the killed five hundred children in 2011 500! how many kids did they killed in the period of 2011 until today?

How many kids were killed by Hamas in the last few days? Do you even care? Also, Hamas used those children as human shields knowing they were going to get killed. 

Seriously, it's not comparable. 

[Conflicting Thought]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

How many kids were killed by Hamas in the last few days? Do you even care? Also, Hamas used those children as human shields knowing they were going to get killed. 

Seriously, it's not comparable. 

i do care, do you care about palestinian lives? not as much as israeli ones i guess.

and israeli repression and humilliation of palestinians doesnt even end in gaza you have the west bank if you want more horrible shit...it really doesnt compare

[dbergkvist]

I can't speak for the rest of you, but I really hate Hamas, and everyone who funded them. Including Netanyahu.

Edited October 13, 2023 by dbergkvist

[Conflicting Thought]

like i know that we are emotional after the dispicable actions of hamas, but man i feel like im going crazy when i see people saying that israelis have it worse, it really doesnt make sense to me

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be the statement beaten into everyone's head. Hamas openly says it wants to kill every Jew. Every. Single. One. And once they got power they set out to do such. So stop both sidings this shit. The Israeli government has done a lot of fucked up shit, but they're not comparable to Hamas and yet some people here seem to have more sympathy for a terrorist organization than the people they explicitly have stated they want to murder and just did. JFC. 

I have not seen anyone here say they have more sympathy for Hamas than for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and their actions were vile, evil, horrific, and I haven’t seen anyone here defending Hamas. The problem imo is that not every Palestinian is affiliated to Hamas; in fact, I’ve read that, in Gaza, the ratio is like 60 : 1 - and I think someone else here brought similar numbers. 
What is being done to the civilian population in Gaza is also vile, evil, horrific. Only it appears to have the full support of most of the western world. If killing innocent civilians is vile, evil and horrific then it should be all those things regardless of who the innocent civilians are. 
 

[Kalbear]

25 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

you would never see this kind of disingenuous bullshit on the ukrain thread...denying genocidal practices is disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourself

To be fair, we did quite a bit. It just tends to be very pro-Russian folks who care very deeply about ballet.

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

i do care, do you care about palestinian lives? 

Clearly more than Hamas does. I'd never approve of firing rockets from apartment's, schools and hospitals. Hamas actively does so and they welcome innocent civilians deaths as a political tool. Think about that. For all of Israel's faults, they don't do things like that.

[Tywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have not seen anyone here say they have more sympathy for Hamas than for Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and their actions were vile, evil, horrific, and I haven’t seen anyone here defending Hamas. The problem imo is that not every Palestinian is affiliated to Hamas; in fact, I’ve read that, in Gaza, the ratio is like 60 : 1 - and I think someone else here brought similar numbers. 
 

I've said several times Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians, but if you spend almost all of your time going at Israel after they were the ones attacked then you are signaling who you have more sympathy for.

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What is being done to the civilian population in Gaza is also vile, evil, horrific. Only it appears to have the full support of most of the western world. If killing innocent civilians is vile, evil and horrific then it should be all those things regardless of who the innocent civilians are. 

I don't support most of  the last decade and a half of policies Israel has had regarding Gaza, but at the same time what would you do if people from Gaza repeatedly bombed cities in Israel and you were in charge? 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I've said several times Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians,

I had not seen any comment made by you on this. But good to know we agree then.

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

but if you spend almost all of your time going at Israel after they were the ones attacked then you are signaling who you have more sympathy for.

I don’t think it's as simple as that, it's not a competition. 

I have enormous sympathy for all civilians caught up in this, all of them, israelis and palestinians. I wish none of them had had to go through the horrors they've been through. And I also think that those in charge of the actions that killed so many innocent civilians on both sides are cruel nasty arseholes who don't care about who gets hurt in the process.

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I don't support most of  the last decade and a half of policies Israel has had regarding Gaza, but at the same time what would you do if people from Gaza repeatedly bombed cities in Israel and you were in charge? 

Good question. But it is incredibly disheartening & depressing that a two state solution seems to be totally unachievable. 

Hamas being wiped off the face of the earth and a truly moderate israeli government would be a good starting point. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I've said several times Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians, but if you spend almost all of your time going at Israel after they were the ones attacked then you are signaling who you have more sympathy for.

Eh. This is a silly argument. I don't think anyone has shown a single bit of support for Hamas here. At best they might understand why people would support them if they were in their shoes, but that's about as far as that goes. But there's been a lot of pushback on supporting Palestinians, so that gets more discussion. I mean, no one is debating whether or not rocket attacks are a good or bad thing, right? But there is debate (surprisingly to me!) about blockading Gaza. So...that gets more talk. I mean, why are you talking about Taylor Swift in the NFL threads when there's football going on? The number of words does not mean the amount of care a person has any more than it means you care more about Swifties than you do about Palestinians. 

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I don't support most of  the last decade and a half of policies Israel has had regarding Gaza, but at the same time what would you do if people from Gaza repeatedly bombed cities in Israel and you were in charge? 

Well the obvious thing is 'not blockade Gaza of food, water and electricity'. Especially electricity given Israel can pretty easily guarantee that the electricity isn't going to smuggle in weapons or smuggle out people. 

Note to me the more heinous thing to respond to is not the bombing of cities - that has caused damage but it has been relatively small and is something Israel has been dealing with for quite a while now. No, the thing to absolutely punish heavily and severely is the widespread slaughter of various communities by Hamas fighters along with the hostage taking. That is a clear escalation that should have a proportionate response. 

I think making sure that no one can leave Palestine is probably a good thing to do. That doesn't mean no food or water, mind you - those can be delivered without issue by others. 

I think going after any Hamas officials regardless of where they exist is a good thing to do. Israel has excellent foreign security forces here and should be able to do this. This is also where US help would be valuable; the US has plenty of experience in targeting people outside of direct war zones. 

I think taking out every single political and official part of the Hamas government would be correct to do - which likely means things like police stations and any militia stations. 

I think that doing any immediate retaliatory response - while very satisfying - is probably not necessary nor is it useful. If you're going after a target that did launch rockets that is fine; if you're going after a large building and have the time to say 'please evacuate it' it's probably not. I think going after places that are specifically being used for places of refuge is also a very poor choice. 

I would also - in every single speech - ensure everyone has good comms discipline and makes it 100% clear that Hamas is the enemy. I would always frame this as an act of mass terror but not give Hamas any more legitimacy than that. If a spokesperson can't do that, they don't get to speak. They get to go in the shouty room and smash things.

Now - if you're talking about what you would have done differently in the last 15 years? I think Israel allowing Hamas to exist (and using it as an excuse for its own shitty policies) is a real problem, and Israel should have been harder on Hamas and not allowed them to exist for so long. 

[Zorral]

In the end, be honest, all of us.  War does not operate by rules.  At all.  Which is why civilians have always been the ones who suffer the worst, the most, the longest.  All civilians, particularly women and children.

 

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I had not seen any comment made by you on this. But good to know we agree then.

I've literally said it numerous times. I shouldn't have to in every post.

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I don’t think it's as simple as that, it's not a competition. 

Hate to break it to you, but it kind of is.

Quote

I have enormous sympathy for all civilians caught up in this, all of them, israelis and palestinians. I wish none of them had had to go through the horrors they've been through. And I also think that those in charge of the actions that killed so many innocent civilians on both sides are cruel nasty arseholes who don't care about who gets hurt in the process.

We agree As I've all said several times leadership on both sides needs to change with more openminded people taking over. However, recent events likely ensure that at least in the short term the assholes who don't actually want peace will likely gain more power.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I've literally said it numerous times. I shouldn't have to in every post.

Okay? I wasn't doubting you'd said it, only that I had not seen it.

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hate to break it to you, but it kind of is.

I disagree here. If all these majorly important issues are boiled down to, "X has suffered more than Y so we should all support X wholeheartedly and fuck Y"... well, then it's a disservice to everyone, on top of not really solving or addressing anything. 

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

We agree As I've all said several times leadership on both sides needs to change with more openminded people taking over.

Agree. 

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

However, recent events likely ensure that at least in the short term the assholes who don't actually want peace will likely gain more power.

Sadly very true. The nasty arseholes will get exactly what they want, everyone else be damned. 

[Fragile Bird]

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

sorry but they have killed 500 hundred, five hundred...five hundred children in like 3 days. the killed five hundred children in 2011 500! how many kids did they killed in the period of 2011 until today?

An Aljazeera news story just popped up on my newsfeed. At least 1,537 Palestinians, including 500 children and 276 women, have been killed. So the rest were men, presumably Hamas soldiers. About 1,300 Israelis have been killed. When the Hamas soldiers crossed the border into Israel, they hit villages and slaughtered the men, women and children they found in their homes. We haven’t seen a breakdown of how many of the 1,300 were women and children. Is this a contest? If only 300 Israeli children died, do you think this was a lesser evil? If fewer than 276 women died, was this a lesser evil? What if 600 of the 1300 were women - does this make what Hamas did worse?

Hamas says Israel is carrying out “genocide” in Gaza. Hamas’ actual founding charter calls for the genocide of all Jewish people. Why don’t any of your posts ever mention this?