UK Politics: Tory Closing Down Sale- Everything Must Go

[The Anti-Targ]

It's wrong to invoke Thatcher because...if you invoke her three times she will be resurrected and eat your children?

Starmer should not have said "..." because... is how he should be criticised. Starmer invoking Thatcher = bad, is not an argument.

From the other side of the world, from the bits and pieces I pick up (mostly here), it seems like Starmer is a disappointment for real progressives. But I have not seen a cogent argument for why what Starmer actually wrote is a betrayal of everyone on the left.

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

You know all those Red Wall seats he absolutely has to win back to get his majority? Well, most of those seats are elected by people whose communities were absolutely destroyed by Thatcher and her policies.

So they are going to vote Tory again because Starmer wrote something about Thatcher? I guess they might, since they voted for Boris thinking the scorpion wouldn't sting them that time, and perhaps they haven't learned yet. Fool me once, and all that. Perhaps they will go Green and sweep several new MPs to the left of Labour into office. That would still help kick the Tories from power. 

[Spockydog]

12 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

help kick the Tories from power. 

Lol. If it walks like a duck, etc.

And, frankly, I doubt that anyone who wasn't forced to live through Thatcher would have the faintest idea of what this woman's legacy really means to working class people in this country. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Spockydog

[mormont]

7 hours ago, Spockydog said:

You know all those Red Wall seats he absolutely has to win back to get his majority? Well, most of those seats are elected by people whose communities were absolutely destroyed by Thatcher and her policies.

These are the exact voters he's appealing to by mentioning her.

[Spockydog]

A word to the wise, Keir Starmer: whoever advised you to praise Thatcher got it wrong
 

Quote

 

Labour has had a poll lead for two years. And the Tories under both Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak are consistently twice as unpopular as they were when Boris Johnson resigned because of Partygate.

There is a settled will in the country that has been seen in recent byelections: voters want to exorcise the Tories. Now is the time for Starmer to be offering change. Plain and simple. No ifs, no buts, and certainly not any praise – however qualified – of any Tory prime minister. Just change.

Labour is in danger of misreading the mood of voters – because it is listening to the wrong ones. This is the second, and really bad, reason for Starmer’s odd attempt to reassure the rusted-on Tory voters who read the Sunday Telegraph that he can say something nice about Thatcher.

It happened because Starmer is listening to focus groups of swing voters. But the brutal truth is that there are no swing voters left – when support for the Tory party has fallen to 25%, there is no longer a pond to fish in. You’re convening groups of voters who are undecided whether to vote Tory, stay at home or opt for Nigel Farage and the Reform party. Sure they have views on what would make them listen to Labour – but they will never switch.

The priority for Starmer is to talk to the 45% of the voters he has won over and to reassure them that he is the change they want to see in the world of British politics.

 

 

[Spockydog]

8 hours ago, mormont said:

These are the exact voters he's appealing to by mentioning her.

Yeah, and he won't do himself any favours by praising that witch. 

Tony Blair lost my late stepfather's vote, a lifetime Labour voter, just because Alan Johnson once said something eggy about the CWU. 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Spockydog

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

A word to the wise, Keir Starmer: whoever advised you to praise Thatcher got it wrong
 

Now is the time for Starmer to be offering change. Plain and simple. No ifs, no buts, and certainly not any praise – however qualified – of any Tory prime minister. Just change.

Starmer is the kind of closet neo-liberal whose entire purpose is to change things as little as he can.

[Maltaran]

25 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, and he won't do himself any favours by praising that witch. 

Tony Blair lost my late stepfather's vote, a lifetime Labour voter, just because Alan Johnson once said something eggy about the CWU. 

 

That sounds like more of an indictment of your stepfather than of any politician, tbh

[mormont]

29 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Yeah, and he won't do himself any favours by praising that witch. 

As we've discussed before, I'm sure, the 'Red Wall' voters are an odd bunch in that they suffered a great deal from Tory (particularly Thatcherite) policies but nevertheless aren't like your stepfather - they don't seem to feel resentment towards the Tories in the way that, say, urban Scottish voters tend to.

And for quite a few of them, it's because they personally did benefit in some ways from Thatcher. Please do bear in mind - these 'Red Wall' voters are  moderately well off older property owners. That generation, remember, were able to buy their council houses at an enormous discount and sell at a massive profit: and then invest the proceeds in privatisation shares and sell those at a profit too. 

Did those same policies ruin their communities and wreck their kids' future? You won't get any argument from me. I don't think anybody could be in any doubt about how I personally feel about Thatcher, and have done since 1979. But it would be daft to pretend that the 'Red Wall' voters who defected to the Tories are more bothered about Starmer namechecking her than they are about Sunak and his party constantly invoking her and aping her policies. If they were willing to switch to her party, they aren't going to be put off by a Labour politician talking about her.

ETA: McTernan's main argument, though, about the pool of swing voters being exhausted, I would agree with. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by mormont

[Spockydog]

17 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

That sounds like more of an indictment of your stepfather than of any politician, tbh

Yeah, he was a Brexit-voting idiot. 

[polishgenius]

FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF

[BigFatCoward]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF FUCK OFF

Quite. 

[mormont]

Tory immigration policy is something, isn't it?

We're utterly dependent on immigration to staff the NHS and social care but the Tory policy is, what if we just pretend really hard that we're not?

ETA - just to be scrupulously fair, the 'salary discount' was always bullshit and I'm glad it's gone. But it was a Tory idea to start with, so.

Edited December 4, 2023 by mormont

[Spockydog]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

Tory immigration policy is something, isn't it?

We're utterly dependent on immigration to staff the NHS and social care but the Tory policy is, what if we just pretend really hard that we're not?

Absolutely this.

When I had heart surgery, I reckon at least 80% of the people who nursed me back to health were overseas nationals. And I doubt many of them were earning this kind of money.

[Heartofice]

The wage requirements do not apply to health and social care workers, so I'm not sure why that pretty important point is getting missed. In fact I think the way it is being reported is deliberately misleading.

The dependents thing I'd argue is not a good move, but given that 100,00 workers brought 120,000 dependents then something is really off with that system and needed to be fixed.

Otherwise I think they are all pretty sensible changes, I am not in any way surprised by the hand wringing by the usual crowd over this.

[kissdbyfire]

It’s a bit long but quite interesting, exclusively about this topic of jobs that employers are having a very hard time filling. There are a few callers talking about social care alone, but there’s all sorts of different areas w/ this difficulty in common,

 

[Heartofice]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s a bit long but quite interesting, exclusively about this topic of jobs that employers are having a very hard time filling. There are a few callers talking about social care alone, but there’s all sorts of different areas w/ this difficulty in common,

 

The interesting part of that call was that places like care homes could do far more to attract workers if they actually tried. Instead the usual strategy is just get someone from abroad who is much more likely to put up with crappy conditions out of desperation. What kind of system are people trying to defend?!

[The Anti-Targ]

I certainly agree that the first push should be for workers, in any sector, to have better pay and conditions. But in the immediate term is there a pool of citizens and permanent residents who are fully trained, and suitable (esp in care sectors the EQ is as important as a piece of paper saying you've had the practical training), in sectors where there is an acknowledged shortage ready and eager to move [back] into those occupations? Lots of qualified people have moved out of sectors, often for pay and conditions reasons, but how many really want to go back? I know a few of former school teachers who are more than happy with their current non-teaching careers / businesses, they are not going back, ever.

Why would anyone think adults with sought after skills and experience immigrating to work in their field shouldn't have 1.2 dependants on average that they would want to bring with them, esp if they are seeking for the move to be long-term / permanent? 

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

The wage requirements do not apply to health and social care workers, so I'm not sure why that pretty important point is getting missed.

Maybe because it's not true.

No such exemption has been reported anywhere I can see.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Pretty sure Starmer will make an immediate announcement pledging to reverse the policy once he takes office.

 

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Maybe because it's not true.

No such exemption has been reported anywhere I can see.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-unveils-plan-to-cut-net-migration#:~:text=Notes to editors%3A,pay scales%2C for example teachers.
 

Quote

• Those coming on the Health and Care visa route will be exempted from the increase to the salary threshold for Skilled Worker visas, so we can continue to bring the healthcare workers that our care sector and NHS need, and we will exempt those on national pay scales, for example teachers.

I agree, it is weird how you haven’t seen it.. almost as if it doesn’t make for such a good headline isn’t it.