Israel - Hamas War X

[TrueMetis]

TBH if you think the left doesn't care about how the French treat Muslims and how foreigners (or indigenous groups like the Ainu for that matter) are treated in Japan then you're hanging out with a weird group of leftists.

Edited November 18, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

That's pretty poor whataboutism tbh. These states are not in a position where they keep violating international law on a regular basis, and no one on the left has ever been cool with Japanese war crimes. In fact, Japan is very high on the list of historical evil ethno-nationalist states, and people are only "cool" with it because it isn't particularly militant today. I personally learned about the gaikokujin tooroku when it still existed, and I was taught about its deeper signification as well.

But there is the rub, these states aren't constantly being attacked are they? So the complaint is an ethnostate defending itself is bad, but ethnostates that aren't being attacked are fine.

Okay...

Quote

That was the slogan of the far-right Front national, whose successors have recently been marching in support of Israel.
Not sure what point you think you're making here, but they're being coherent on this one.

My point is most countries are ethnostates and/or want to be one. So why again does this one tiny country get attacked from the left for being one? It's not all anti-Semitism, but a lot of it also is. 

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But there is the rub, these states aren't constantly being attacked are they? So the complaint is an ethnostate defending itself is bad, but ethnostates that aren't being attacked are fine.

Okay...

My point is most countries are ethnostates and/or want to be one. So why again does this one tiny country get attacked from the left for being one? It's not all anti-Semitism, but a lot of it also is. 

Pretty sure a big part of it is most of those other states don't have 40% of the population that they control in apartheid conditions that only get worse. It's kind of a big deal that, say, France is not responsible for almost 1/3rd of all permanent refugees in the world. Kind of a big deal that Japan is not building settlements in disputed sino-russian territory.

Ain't saying that there isn't antisemitism too, but a whole lot of the objections have zero to do with that.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Pretty sure a big part of it is most of those other states don't have 40% of the population that they control in apartheid conditions that only get worse. It's kind of a big deal that, say, France is not responsible for almost 1/3rd of all permanent refugees in the world. Kind of a big deal that Japan is not building settlements in disputed sino-russian territory.

Ain't saying that there isn't antisemitism too, but a whole lot of the objections have zero to do with that.

I'm not sure where you're getting either of those statistics from. A quick Google search finds radically different numbers.

[Altherion]

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Lots of people on the left always had legitimate doubts about building a Jewish ethno-State. Lots of Zionists and Israelis as well, if you look back to the past (as of now, the Israeli left has almost disappeared).
As a rule, people on the left are not fond of ethno-States and ethno-nationalism. But many, for reasons of their own, were willing to delude themselves into believing that a Jewish ethno-State might be different.
What's happening today shatters that illusion, because it makes it increasingly difficult to distinguish Netanyahu and his government's policies from Israel itself, as a project, because for most people Israel is still a recent creation, which means the way it is perceived is largely dependent on what's happening in the here and now.
And the more this goes on, and the harder it will be: Israel brazenly committing war crimes in front the entire world will mechanically lead almost everyone to question whether it should exist at all.
Is it unfair? Yes. Lots of other States get away with war crimes without seeing their very existence called into question. But dismissing all left-wing criticism of Israel as anti-semitic won't help. Netanyahu's Israel eagerly falling for Hamas's trap is the problem here... Right now the greatest threat to Israel isn't Hamas, it's Netanyahu.

The Israeli left is still there -- the vast majority of them are simply not willing to oppose the war right now for the same reasons as most of the American left did not oppose the initial response to 9/11. Similarly, the current response of Israel has absolutely nothing with the kind of state that it is: any country would respond this way when attacked the way Israel was attacked (you might think of some leaders that would try not to, but those leaders would be kicked out if they did not).

Regarding the people who question whether it should exist at all: first, these are nowhere near "almost everyone"; vocal as they are, these people are relatively few. Second, the reason they do not have such questions regarding other states which do much worse for much smaller reasons is mainly antisemitism (why else?). Third, what has historically been helpful in making these people pipe down is massive military force.

All of that said, I think pretty much everyone except the man himself agrees that Netanyahu should go. The only thing keeping him in place is the state of war and while he will try to prolong it, the army and the rest of Israeli society will not tolerate this because of the casualties.

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

But there is the rub, these states aren't constantly being attacked are they? So the complaint is an ethnostate defending itself is bad, but ethnostates that aren't being attacked are fine.

The rub is that ethnostates led by unscrupulous ethno-nationalists define defense so as to establish their superiority and accomplish their own objectives, and someone like Netanyahu is really not who you want to be in charge of defining the objectives.

[GrimTuesday]

Totally cool and normal shit. Given the fact that Palestinians are being squeezed into an ever shrinking space, I think we're going to see casualties start to rise precipitously as they have fewer places to go for safety.

[Craving Peaches]

Another two journalists reported killed in one airstrike. Apparently the bombardment of the south has intensified.

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

fewer places to go for safety.

I have the sinking feeling that soon they will be told to evacuate to the Sinai Desert. I really hope it doesn't happen, but...

[TrueMetis]

Apparently a Israeli police report suggests the Hamas did not know about the music festival when it attacked. Which I gotta say is just a nuts thought. The festival was also only extended to Saturday a few days before the festival started too.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/18/hamas-had-not-planned-to-attack-israel-music-festival-israeli-report-says

[kissdbyfire]

The War Turns Gaza Into a ‘Graveyard’ for Children
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/18/world/middleeast/gaza-children-israel.html
 

Quote

Barefoot and weeping, Khaled Joudeh, 9, hurried toward the dozens of bodies wrapped in white burial shrouds, blankets and rugs outside the overcrowded morgue.

“Where’s my mom?” he cried next to a photographer for The New York Times. “I want to see my mom.”

“Where is Khalil?” he continued, barely audible between sobs as he asked for his 12-year-old brother. A morgue worker opened a white shroud, so Khaled could kiss his brother one final time.

Then, he bid farewell to his 8-month-old sister. Another shroud was pulled back, revealing the blood-caked face of a baby, her strawberry-red hair matted down. Khaled broke into fresh sobs as he identified her to the hospital staff. Her name was Misk, Arabic for musk.

“Mama was so happy when she had you,” he whispered, gently touching her forehead, tears streaming down his face onto hers.

She was the joy of his family, relatives later said — after three boys, his parents were desperate for a girl. When she was born, they said, Khaled’s mother delighted in dressing Misk in frilly, colorful dresses, pinning her tiny curls in bright hair clips.

Through his tears, Khaled bid farewell to his mother, father, older brother and sister, their bodies lined up around him. Only Khaled and his younger brother, Tamer, 7, survived what relatives and local journalists said was an airstrike on Oct. 22 that toppled two buildings sheltering their extended family.

A total of 68 members of the Joudeh family were killed that day as they slept in their beds in Deir al Balah, in central Gaza, three of Khaled’s relatives recounted in separate interviews.

Several branches and generations of the Joudehs, a Palestinian family, had been huddling together before the strike, relatives said, including some who had fled northern Gaza, as Israel had ordered residents to do. The Israeli military said it could not address questions about a strike on the family.

 

[Relic]

16 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It really is, otherwise it wouldn't be Israel's central demand. 

Well, apparently these folks don't agree with your assessment. 

"An estimated 20,000 demonstrators, including family and friends of about 240 captives, held a rally in front of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu‘s office on Saturday. They say the government has been ignoring their pleas to prioritise bringing their loved ones home."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/18/march-from-tel-aviv-arrives-in-jerusalem-calling-the-release-of-captives

[Relic]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Apparently a Israeli police report suggests the Hamas did not know about the music festival when it attacked. Which I gotta say is just a nuts thought. The festival was also only extended to Saturday a few days before the festival started too.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/18/hamas-had-not-planned-to-attack-israel-music-festival-israeli-report-says

Also in the article - 

“An investigation into the incident revealed an [Israeli military] combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers there,” the news report cited an unnamed police official as saying.

Standard operating procedure? 

 

[Craving Peaches]

Al Jazeera reports six journalists and media workers were killed in one night in Gaza. 

Quote

Here are their names:

• Mustafa Al-Sawaf, journalist and writer.
• Musab Ashour, photo-journalist.
• Amr Abu Hayya, engineer for Al-Aqsa TV.
• Abd Alhalim Awad, administrator working for Al-Aqsa TV.

Earlier, we reported the death of two reporters in Bureij refugee camp:

• Sari Mansour, journalist with Quds news.
• Hassouneh Salim, journalist with Quds news.

I am growing increasingly concerned that soon all the journalists in Gaza will be dead.

[Craving Peaches]

Save the Children has sent six ambulances to transport the premature babies from al-Shifa to the European Hospital and Al-Nasser hospital in the south of Gaza, according to Al Jazeera. I hope the babies get there safely and can receive the care they need.

[kissdbyfire]

Netanyahu's niece disagrees w/ her uncle.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The rub is that ethnostates led by unscrupulous ethno-nationalists define defense so as to establish their superiority and accomplish their own objectives, and someone like Netanyahu is really not who you want to be in charge of defining the objectives.

Pretty much everyone agrees Netanyahu is not fit to lead, but that's changing the point. I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of people living in ethnostates claiming Israel is an ethnostate and how it's disproportionately called one.

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Well, apparently these folks don't agree with your assessment. 

"An estimated 20,000 demonstrators, including family and friends of about 240 captives, held a rally in front of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu‘s office on Saturday. They say the government has been ignoring their pleas to prioritise bringing their loved ones home."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/18/march-from-tel-aviv-arrives-in-jerusalem-calling-the-release-of-captives

Again, Al Jazeera is Qatari state media and is openly hostile to Israel. This is like trusting RT to report on Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

[Relic]

17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Pretty much everyone agrees Netanyahu is not fit to lead, but that's changing the point. I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of people living in ethnostates claiming Israel is an ethnostate and how it's disproportionately called one.

Again, Al Jazeera is Qatari state media and is openly hostile to Israel. This is like trusting RT to report on Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 

I'm sorry, are you suggesting such a protest did not occur because AJ ran a story about it? That's so incredibly lazy...

Here's a different link, then. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostage-families-near-jerusalem-march-solidarity-protest-2023-11-17/

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Relic said:

I'm sorry, are you suggesting such a protest did not occur because AJ ran a story about it? That's so incredibly lazy...

Here's a different link, then. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostage-families-near-jerusalem-march-solidarity-protest-2023-11-17/

Of course a protest occurred. I'm just saying don't trust AJ's framing of it. They're not an independent media source. Idk how that can even be debated. 

[Relic]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Of course a protest occurred. I'm just saying don't trust AJ's framing of it. They're not an independent media source. Idk how that can even be debated. 

Right...so setting that aside, do you have an actual reply to the point being made here? 

Here's another article on the protest/march.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-families-protest-war-netanyahu-9846d568b3021582b5c588e28850cbea

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Relic said:

Right...so setting that aside, do you have an actual reply to the point being made here? 

Here's another article on the protest/march.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-hostages-families-protest-war-netanyahu-9846d568b3021582b5c588e28850cbea

That Israelis, their government and other countries are demanding every hostage be released?

It's Hamas who won't release them all. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Tywin et al.