Israel - Hamas War XII

[Hmmm]

15 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The IDF has erected a 13 meter high menorah in the Gaza strip. I don't see how this can be seen as anything but a provocation.

 

Maybe because they are constantly being caught lying and they have a vested interest in inflating the atrocities of Hamas and the other groups that perpetrated October 7th due to the fact that public sentiment is turning against them due to how brutal and disproportionate their response has been.

There is no doubt that sexual assault happened, it is far more unbelievable (and silly) to say that there was zero sexual assaults, but the implication that it was organized or widespread is what is suspect.

The BBC absolutely falls into the trap that many other supposedly non-biased news sources where in order to maintain that reputation of being non-biased, they are prone to giving credence to dishonest actors.

Dishonest actors like eye witnessess, first responders, and police- and forensic investigators?

But okay. Let's try this then. Hypothetically, what kind of evidence would it take to make you believe that there was actually widespread and organized rape during the October 7 assaults? Is there anything beyond the Hamas leadership admitting it themselves that would actually make you change your mind, and in that case what?

[Zorral]

Here -- you have just done what is perceived as being done over and over with the horrific usage of Israeli women's horrific suffering and murders and rapes -- instead of responding to the deliberate 'we shit on you' of a massive menorah erected in bombed out Gaza neighborhoods, you are attempting to deflect by demanding people talk about these rapes.

 

[Zorral]

40 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Any reason you just believe the one and just not believe the other?

Because outside entities and orgs have found the stats provided by Gazan medical and stat groups to be reliable.

Whereas, as mentioned, Israelbibiblahblah have been proven to be unreliable and liars of omission and commission many many many times. NOT ALWAYS, but very very very often in regard to anything to do with Palestinians, Gaza and the West Bank, and even killing innocent people.

[GrimTuesday]

4 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Dishonest actors like eye witnessess, first responders, and police- and forensic investigators?

But okay. Let's try this then. Hypothetically, what kind of evidence would it take to make you believe that there was actually widespread and organized rape during the October 7 assaults? Is there anything beyond the Hamas leadership admitting it themselves that would actually make you change your mind, and in that case what?

I would need evidence from a nonaligned third party, not reports that are being made by tools of the Israeli state or or allied actors like the American state department.

[Mudguard]

19 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Dishonest actors like eye witnessess, first responders, and police- and forensic investigators?

But okay. Let's try this then. Hypothetically, what kind of evidence would it take to make you believe that there was actually widespread and organized rape during the October 7 assaults? Is there anything beyond the Hamas leadership admitting it themselves that would actually make you change your mind, and in that case what?

Like others, I also see plenty of evidence that rapes occured many times, so I have no problem believing this.

Regarding the assertion that the rapes were organized, detailed plans were found with some of the killed terrorists.  If the plans included instructions to rape, then that would be good evidence that the rapes were organized.  I don't recall reading anything like that though, but it's possible I missed it.  If you have a link to a reputable news site that provided a translation of these plans that states this, please share.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Mudguard

[Hmmm]

13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Here -- you have just done what is perceived as being done over and over with the horrific usage of Israeli women's horrific suffering and murders and rapes -- instead of responding to the deliberate 'we shit on you' of a massive menorah erected in bombed out Gaza neighborhoods, you are attempting to deflect by demanding people talk about these rapes.

 

I was responding to the part of his post that was responding to me. I don't see why I need to comment a menorah. 

But yeah, we should probably cover up and not discuss the Hamas atrocities "for the sake of the victims". Who do you think falls for that crap?

9 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I would need evidence from a nonaligned third party, not reports that are being made by tools of the Israeli state or or allied actors like the American state department.

Investigate journalism from well reputed, independent media organizations based in other countries seems like exactly that. But apparently not. What kind of third party would be sufficiently non-aligned to you?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[kissdbyfire]

I missed this...

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Cold, unfeeling murder is what your people did to mine. 

You really need to chill with this shit.

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Citation needed. 

Hamas included around 1,500 terrorists of theirs that were killed in the initial death count and best I can tell they still are when reporting the overall totals. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Mudguard]

Another thing regarding the rapes and Hamas leadership.  The denials that any rapes occurred despite overwhelming evidence, along with the lack of punishment for the terrorists that committed these crimes if rape is against their rules, means that the Hamas leadership at least tacitly approved of the rapes of Israeli civilians, after the fact.  

[Tywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Maybe because they are constantly being caught lying and they have a vested interest in inflating the atrocities of Hamas and the other groups that perpetrated October 7th due to the fact that public sentiment is turning against them due to how brutal and disproportionate their response has been.

What the fuck is wrong with you? First you call Hamas liberators and now you support diminishing the atrocities that happened? JFC dude. 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You really need to chill with this shit dude.

If she's going to speak for what Jews feel like (while not being one herself) I'm going to point out every single time that one of the reasons she feels this particular way is because she's German. And that German guilt - while absolutely deserved and important - is not a universal thing that everyone else in the world needs to base their actions on. 

And again, I find it deeply ironic that a German person is saying that murder via rage is worse than cold, unfeeling murder, especially when talking about a topic involving Jewish people. 

So no, I'm not going to chill with said shit. 

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hamas included around 1,500 terrorists of theirs that were killed in the initial death count and best I can tell they still are when reporting the overall totals. 

I'm honestly not sure about that, but it's really not that important - the 5000 mentioned came solely from IDF anonymous sources and hasn't been well-sourced at all, and even they say it's an estimate. Also, from previous reporting how IDF considers a 'Hamas' member is a bit loose. 

But even then, we're still talking over 10000 civilian deaths in two months. That's a lot!

[Hmmm]

34 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Like others, I also see plenty of evidence that rapes occured many times, so I have no problem believing this.

Regarding the assertion that the rapes were organized, detailed plans were found with some of the killed terrorists.  If the plans included instructions to rape, then that would be good evidence that the rapes were organized.  I don't recall reading anything like that though, but it's possible I missed it.  If you have a link to a reputable news site that provided a translation of these plans that states this, please share.

If your standards for determining if these rapes were organized or not is that we need to find some sort of rape handbook on the terrorists, it is probably never going to be proven. 

I think that the picture is pretty clear from the available evidence, even if might not yet be enough to hold up in a war tribunal. We can now be quite sure it was widespread, extremely brutal even when compared to many other wars, and the terrorists (many of which were supposedly Hamas' elite troops) took the time to do these things even while battling IDF forces. Several captured terrorists are also on tape saying that they were indeed ordered to do it. But even disregading those testimonies, the idea that it just materialized spontaneously, at this scale, without any permission or orders given from the Hamas officers seems very unlikely. Are there any historical examples of such things? Not many I am quite sure. Especially not from more modern times.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Are there any historical examples of such things?

Unfortunately yes, there are. Countless ones. We have examples of this in Ukraine by Russia. We have examples of this in Sudan, in Eritrea. We have seen this with ISIS. I'm certainly willing to believe that Hamas did even worse, but sadly sexual violence against women used as a weapon is entirely commonplace.

How could it be worse? If they had planned on doing this during their wargaming. That level of premeditation is somewhat more uncommon; it's usually the case that the soldiers are given free rein, but not specifically ordered to do it. 

Also, here's that story on the reporter that was either deliberately targeted by Israel or warnings about the reporter being there were ignored:

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1217855847/reuters-journalist-death-issam-abdallah-israel?utm_medium=JSONFeed&utm_campaign=news&utm_source=press.coop

[Mudguard]

3 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

If your standards for determining if these rapes were organized or not is that we need to find some sort of rape handbook on the terrorists, it is probably never going to be proven. 

I think that the picture is pretty clear from the available evidence, even if might not yet be enough to hold up in a war tribunal. We can now be quite sure it was widespread, extremely brutal even when compared to other wars, and the terrorists (many of which were supposedly Hamas' elite troops) took the time to do these things even while battling IDF forces. Several captured terrorists are also on tape saying that they were indeed ordered to do it. But even disregading those testimnoies, the idea that it just materialized spontaneously, at this scale, without any permission or orders given from the Hamas officers seems very unlikely. Are there any historical examples of such things?

Has Hamas ever invaded Israel before?  I'm familiar with their rocket attacks, but I don't know if they've actually invaded Israel on a smaller scale prior to Oct. 7th.  If they did invade Israel in the past, and rapes happened in the past, then that would also convince me that at a minimum, the leadership gave the green light to it even if they didn't order the rapes directly.

There is definitely something to the argument that because it happened to such a large degree, that it wasn't spontaneous.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least that dozens of terrorists discussed amongst themselves plans to commit rapes.  Whether the leadership was aware of this, or ordered it, or gave the green light to it, who knows.  Maybe.  I'm suspicious that that was the case, but I would need more evidence to be sure.

[Hmmm]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Unfortunately yes, there are. Countless ones. We have examples of this in Ukraine by Russia. We have examples of this in Sudan, in Eritrea. We have seen this with ISIS. I'm certainly willing to believe that Hamas did even worse, but sadly sexual violence against women used as a weapon is entirely commonplace.

How could it be worse? If they had planned on doing this during their wargaming. That level of premeditation is somewhat more uncommon; it's usually the case that the soldiers are given free rein, but not specifically ordered to do it. 

Also, here's that story on the reporter that was either deliberately targeted by Israel or warnings about the reporter being there were ignored:

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1217855847/reuters-journalist-death-issam-abdallah-israel?utm_medium=JSONFeed&utm_campaign=news&utm_source=press.coop

I was a bit unclear with my final question. I mean examples where troops do such things, at great scale, without being given permission or ordered by their superiors. In the ISIS and Russian cases they certainly seem to have been. Sudan too, as far as I know, given that it was a regime led genocide. 

The only examples I can think of off hand are certain examples from like the medieval or early modern period where the officers seem to have lost control of their troops and everything spiralled into chaos. But even there, I think one can be suspicious of if that was truly what happened or if their leaders tried to wash their hands off it afterwards. And Hamas is not a medieval militia anyway. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[GrimTuesday]

41 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Investigate journalism from well reputed, independent media organizations based in other countries seems like exactly that. But apparently not. What kind of third party would be sufficiently non-aligned to you?

Probably a international human rights organization or the UN.

Investigative journalists are only able to access information that the Israeli government provides, and as we all know, Israel has a history of lying and omitting important information to fit their narrative. They also have sympathetic journalists and outlets who will uncritically repeat their propaganda even within those well reputed, independent media organizations, the same as basically every country does.

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What the fuck is wrong with you? First you call Hamas liberators and now you support diminishing the atrocities that happened? JFC dude. 

Except I'm not doing that, in either case.

I described Hamas as a liberatory organization because no matter how much you want to focus on their antisemitism, they absolutely are fighting for Palestinian freedom. I don't like Hamas, I don't like their politics but it is true. If you only see Hamas as some kind of one dimensional genocidal organization, you've fallen for propaganda. If you see them as some sort of organization of saints who are pure in their intentions, you've fallen for propaganda. Hamas has committed crimes against humanity, and I absolutely want to see those who perpetrated those crimes punished in a criminal court, but they also have legitimate grievances and motivations.

As for diminishing the atrocities, We have very little in the way of independently verified information of the atrocities, most of the reporting is second hand and comes from IDF or Israeli government sources. We absolutely must acknowledge the atrocities Hamas committed, but lets be honest, Israel is losing the battle of public perception, and they know that they will be given a level of credulity and will stretch that as far as they can to try and regain control of the narrative. It's not just Israel that does this, it's basic PR shit.

Edited December 7, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

I was a bit unclear with my final question. I mean examples where troops do this without being given permission or ordered by their superiors. In the ISIS and Russian cases they definitely were. Sudan too, as far as I know, given that it was a regime led genocide. 

Oh, sorry - you're asking are there cases where there is widespread rape that is not specifically ordered by someone? That's more common. There are cases of that in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia. I don't know enough about some of the civil wars in Africa but I suspect there as well. Yemen too. 

Some times they are disciplined, some times not, but it does happen. It's definitely not just the case of a medieval militia going wild. 

 

[Jace, Extat]

"Liberatory organization" 

 

[Hmmm]

25 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Has Hamas ever invaded Israel before?  I'm familiar with their rocket attacks, but I don't know if they've actually invaded Israel on a smaller scale prior to Oct. 7th.  If they did invade Israel in the past, and rapes happened in the past, then that would also convince me that at a minimum, the leadership gave the green light to it even if they didn't order the rapes directly.

There is definitely something to the argument that because it happened to such a large degree, that it wasn't spontaneous.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least that dozens of terrorists discussed amongst themselves plans to commit rapes.  Whether the leadership was aware of this, or ordered it, or gave the green light to it, who knows.  Maybe.  I'm suspicious that that was the case, but I would need more evidence to be sure.

Nothing comparable in the least to this invasion. 

Again, it was large scale and very intense (most of these atrocities took place over the course of a handful of hours) happened in multiple locations by multiple groups of terrorists, and was unusually cruel. 

While I admit it is not impossible that it was unorganized, it seems far more likely that it was organized.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[GrimTuesday]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

"Liberatory organization" 

 

Calling someone a liberatory organization is not the same as endorsing their methods.