Israel - Hamas War XII

[Zorral]

... diseases spread among the displaced

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/07/israel-hamas-khan-younis-battle-disease/

Quote

 

.... “Through our inspection of refugee camps, we noticed a large spread of hepatitis, which is spreading due to crowding of people, lack of usable drinking water and contaminated food,” Imad Al-Hams, an emergency physician in Rafah, told The Post. “This is a serious disease that leads to death.”

People injured in Israeli airstrikes on southern Gaza sit on the floor at Nasser Hospital in Khan Yunis, southern Gaza Strip, Thursday. (Haitham Imad/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock)
He said it was hard to issue official figures on the volume of infections, due to the large number of people and a lack of access for medical teams, but noted that many diseases were spreading because of poor hygiene conditions, and children were particularly at risk.

Saif Al-Din Muhammad Qadouha, 45, told The Post his home in northern Gaza was destroyed at the outset of the war, forcing him to flee to Rafah where he now lives in a makeshift school shelter with his family. “We receive water only once, for an hour, every three or four days … I live with my family of 11 people in this tent,” he said.

He added that his son “was infected with hepatitis C, which is a contagious and dangerous disease.”

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

25 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

 

• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

I want to be clear, I don't agree with a lot of what you've said over the last few days, but this is correct. Comparing Jews to Nazis is one of the most hurtful things you can ever say, and when you do it casually without any thought of how a Jewish person might read your comment, you really need to rethink how you're discussing this topic. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Could you explain how this is inaccurate,

To start with -- the Liberia for African Americans was an idea to move, first, the  enslaved, then the free people of color, to Liberia -- to get them out of here -- particularly the free people of color because such a bad example to the the enslaved, prior to the War of the Rebellion, which was fought, ironically in this context, to PRESERVE and EXPAND slavery throughout the entire Western Hemisphere and then, hopefully into the Pacific. (The Fantasy Ideals of the Slaveocracy had no bounds, just like the fash of today.)

Second, this idea was NOT greeted with joy by any African Americans, either before or after the War of the Rebellion.  The blood and bones and spirits of their ancestors were here, now, and forever.

Third, the 'missionary' societies who persuaded some, very few, African Americans to migrate to Liberia were seriously underfunded and seriously ignorant.  It never occurred to them that African Americans did not speak the languages -- by now Liberia, having been the center of African slavers for so long -- or belong to the variety of cultures and religions who were there already, some because it was traditional tribal home, but by now, more by Africans displaced by the slave wars and the slave trade itself.  Liberia was essentially a gangster state, created out of a mess created by Europeans and the Atlantic slave trade.

Nor did the African Americans have the knowledge or property to build any kind of home, as they had none of their own, particularly the enslaved brought directly by purchase or other means from the South.  Plus, no money, no food, no supplies, NOTHING.  Many simply died of malnutrition, exposure and disease.  Others managed to get back to North America, or even, a few to Britain and other places. They recounted their histories of incredible suffering and misery from their generally forced transplantation.

Very few thrived, and those few who did, as in so many other locations throughout history made by war, famine and displacement, did so by becoming gangsters themselves, as these places are not lands of opportunities, unless one can, of course, kick off and murder those who were already there and take their stuff for your own.

Monrovia/Liberia was another in a long list of kick the can elsewhere solutions to a problem that was made by the can kickers and a miserable failure due their own denial of reality.  That Monrovia was such a failure one could see from the gitgo as it was conceived by the 1820's US slaveocracy, and 'administered' by them, until they dumped on a variety of religious figures -- all white, may we say? -- and not African.

Highly recommend among other works to inform yourself about African history, Howard French's Born in Blackness.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Zorral

[Fragile Bird]

On 12/5/2023 at 5:48 PM, Hmmm said:

BBC just published a long article regarding rape and mutiliation of women during Hamas' October 7 attacks. It is the most thorough investigate article on this subject that I have seen published so far.

(Warning for very upsetting content, of course):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181 

I’m quoting this post because I see there has been a rather deathly silence (I’m using the words intentionally) in this thread about this post. None of you read it, eh? Go back to the first thread and reread your comments about what dishonest liars the Israeli authorities were about atrocities committed. Uh-huh.

I have to admit some of the details are so intensely disturbing and disgusting I did not get to the end of the article. I had read reports about the atrocities committed very early on. I’m sure all of you remember what I said about part of my brain not caring if revenge was taken. After reading this account I am absolutely astonished there wasn’t an immediate revenge raid, and at one point I said it showed how professional the IDF were that they held back. I also recall someone posting a laugh emoji on that post. Funny, eh.

I don’t believe it’s useful for heads of state to describe or compare people to “animals”, certainly you won’t stop the man in the street from doing so, it’s a word commonly used to describe people who commit shocking crimes. As I was reading the article I thought about those of you who expressed outrage when Netanyahu used the term. I always suspected he did so because the reports of what the Hamas soldiers did to people were placed before him. I can’t say I blame him for the word. Unfortunate, yes, but not surprising.

[Zorral]

Strike That Killed Reuters Journalist Was ‘Apparently Deliberate’ Israeli Attack, Group Says
Human Rights Watch found that the slain journalist and six colleagues were not near active fighting in southern Lebanon and would have been clearly visible to Israeli forces.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/07/world/middleeast/reuters-journalist-killed-lebanon-israel-hrw.html

Quote

 

An Oct. 13 strike that killed a videographer for the Reuters news agency and injured six others in southern Lebanon was carried out by the Israeli military and appeared to be a deliberate attack, Human Rights Watch said on Thursday.

The watchdog group said that evidence it had reviewed — including dozens of videos of the incident, photographs and satellite images, and interviews with witnesses and military experts — showed that the journalists were not near areas where fighting was taking place and that there was no military objective near their position.

“The attack on the journalists’ position directly targeted them,” the report said, labeling the attack a war crime.

The Israeli authorities did not immediately respond to the report.

Reuters published its own investigation on Thursday and said that an Israeli tank crew had killed its journalist and wounded the others.

“The evidence we now have, and have published today, shows that an Israeli tank crew killed our colleague Issam Abdallah,” the Reuters editor-in-chief, Alessandra Galloni, said in a statement. She called on Israel “to explain how this could have happened and to hold to account those responsible.”

On Oct. 13, a week after Hamas attacks on Israel sparked an all-out war, the seven journalists from Reuters, Al Jazeera and Agence France-Presse, the French news agency, were standing on a hilltop in southern Lebanon close to the border with Israel. They were filming and broadcasting cross-border shelling between the Israeli army and Lebanese militants allied with Hamas.

The report said that the journalists were wearing antiballistic jackets marked “Press” and had a car marked “TV.” They had been at that position for more than an hour and were visible from an Israeli military location more than a mile away, the report said. ....

 

The reason there is 'deathly silence' with concern to the atrocities committed upon Israeli women on Oct. 7, has been answered above -- that since then there have been endless atrocities committed upon Palestinians including women and children since then, every single day and night.  Beyond that, suddenly Israel's ruling parties which have shown themselves for previous years to not have a particularly high regard for women, their health and autonomy, are suddenly yelling about it now.  Not saying in the least these horrors didn't take place -- but the timing does seem conveniently set up to distract, shall we say, from the atrocities the IDF commits 24/7, to which the world is objecting.

[kissdbyfire]

39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I’m quoting this post because I see there has been a rather deathly silence (I’m using the words intentionally) in this thread about this post. None of you read it, eh? Go back to the first thread and reread your comments about what dishonest liars the Israeli authorities were about atrocities committed. Uh-huh.

I have to admit some of the details are so intensely disturbing and disgusting I did not get to the end of the article. I had read reports about the atrocities committed very early on. I’m sure all of you remember what I said about part of my brain not caring if revenge was taken. After reading this account I am absolutely astonished there wasn’t an immediate revenge raid, and at one point I said it showed how professional the IDF were that they held back. I also recall someone posting a laugh emoji on that post. Funny, eh.

That article remains horrific and extremely hard to read all the way to the end, you were right to spare yourself; I regret having read the whole thing.

39 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don’t believe it’s useful for heads of state to describe or compare people to “animals”, certainly you won’t stop the man in the street from doing so, it’s a word commonly used to describe people who commit shocking crimes. As I was reading the article I thought about those of you who expressed outrage when Netanyahu used the term. I always suspected he did so because the reports of what the Hamas soldiers did to people were placed before him. I can’t say I blame him for the word. Unfortunate, yes, but not surprising.

I very strongly object to anyone being called an “animal” b/c it doesn’t do justice to either animals or whoever is being compared to one. Animals don’t do this type of thing, do they? Only humans are capable of the savage cruelty described in the article, only humans are capable of the savage cruelty of leaving their fellow humans w/o water, food, medication, and displacement and so much more. 
Hamas & Bibi & his goons can go fuck themselves and I wish all of them nothing but what they all deserve. 
 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

None of you read it, eh?

What makes you think that? I read it before that link was even posted, for example. 

A good rule for discussions here (and I'm saying this in general, not just about this specific instance) is never to make inferences at all from the fact that a post someone made hasn't been commented on or discussed. It might mean that people didn't read the post, or that they agreed with it but had nothing to add, or that they disagreed with it but weren't able to articulate a response, or that they were away from their computer for a while, or that they find the topic traumatising, or that they otherwise just don't want to talk about it or don't see any need to comment. It might mean various of these things, or other things that don't come to mind right now. It could mean anything or nothing. Drawing inferences, especially negative ones, from a lack of response is not really a helpful contribution to any discussion, let alone a very charged one like this. I would ask that people don't do it. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

None of you read it, eh?

I listened to first person accounts of the atrocities on the radio, from people who treated the women, and their relatives and other witnesses, provided to us by NPR.  Which took place BEFORE the article you linked to.  And yes, it triggered me horrifically in all sorts of ways due to atrocities committed against my baby sister, and -- well, not as badly as happened to her, but to myself.

Does that count?  

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I’m quoting this post because I see there has been a rather deathly silence (I’m using the words intentionally) in this thread about this post. None of you read it, eh? Go back to the first thread and reread your comments about what dishonest liars the Israeli authorities were about atrocities committed. Uh-huh.

To be clear I did read the article and several others before this about it.

Israel authorities were and are dishonest liars about many of the atrocities they claimed occurred. 

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I also recall someone posting a laugh emoji on that post. Funny, eh.

It is pretty wryly amusing to consider what the IDF is doing and viewing them as 'professional' because they didn't, I don't know, go in and mow down people with machine guns or bayonets or whatever your revenge fantasy was at the time. Instead they're just professionally bombing thousands of Palestinian civilians from a plane or via artillery strikes. They're professionally considering flooding the tunnels that contain their hostages with sea water, destroying what was left of the water table in the area. They professionally denied food and water for months, continue to deny electricity and as a result disease is spreading rapidly through the area. 

I don't know if I'm the one who reacted to that post with a laugh emoji but I can see why someone did - because the notion of what the IDF is doing being considered as 'professional' as a positive thing here is quite ridiculous. 

I'll also note that whether you kill a bunch of civilians without malice or anger or you kill them with maniacal glee they're still quite dead. 

 

[JoannaL]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

Israel authorities were and are dishonest liars about many of the atrocities they claimed occurred

 

Why do you think the Israeli authorities are dishonest?

 

"I'll also note that whether you kill a bunch of civilians without malice or anger or you kill them with maniacal glee they're still quite dead.  "

I disagree if I had a little daughter I would very much prefer her to die by a bomb as collateral damage by unfeeling war  than being captured and then being tortured and raped to death by hateful men who thrieve on her pain.

 

[Altherion]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They're professionally considering flooding the tunnels that contain their hostages with sea water

I think this is the result of a game of broken telephone. They are considering flooding the tunnels with sea water, yes, but this is a long term solution. They're not going to do it while the hostages are still in the tunnels -- among other things, that would cause the people who ordered this to go on trial in Israel.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, JoannaL said:

Why do you think the Israeli authorities are dishonest?

Because they've repeatedly reported things that have been shown to be flat-out lies, both in this war and in previous wars. 

1 minute ago, JoannaL said:

 

"I'll also note that whether you kill a bunch of civilians without malice or anger or you kill them with maniacal glee they're still quite dead.  "

I disagree if I had a little daughter I would very much prefer her to die by a bomb as collateral damage by unfeeling war  than being captured and then being tortured and raped to death by hateful men who thrieve on her pain.

I have several sons and a daughter. One type of death would make me angrier but I wouldn't have a preference. Cold, unfeeling murder is what your people did to mine. It doesn't make me feel any better about it. 

[Hmmm]

Ah yes, BBC, the notorious pro-Israeli propaganda rag.  

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[Zorral]

33 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Why do you think the Israeli authorities are dishonest?

Because they've been proven to say many things that were lies, or at the very least, untrue, including about some of the atrocities that were committed and how atrocities were committed and by whom. 

Including all the proven atrocities they have committed themselves -- going back decades -- and lying about those.

 

[JoannaL]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because they've repeatedly reported things that have been shown to be flat-out lies, both in this war and in previous wars. 

I have several sons and a daughter. One type of death would make me angrier but I wouldn't have a preference. Cold, unfeeling murder is what your people did to mine. It doesn't make me feel any better about it. 

But you and everyone else here cite the numbers the hamas government give you about the Palestinian dead.  Any reason you just believe the one and just not believe the other? Was the Hamas in the past always truthful?

Have you proof that the Israeli girls and women were not tortured and raped and the Israeli lie about this? I mean were the Hamas body cameras which filmed it in real time and screened it gleefully to the world just some Israeli hoax?

About the preferences of deaths of our children we will have to agree to disagree.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

But you and everyone else here cite the numbers the hamas government give you about the Palestinian dead.  Any reason you just believe the one and just not believe the other? Was the Hamas in the past always truthful?

For the death numbers? they've been shown repeatedly to be accurate. They're also incredibly widely used by all news organizations. 

Note that the IDF has been dishonest and evasive enough that most news organizations now say things like 'the IDF claims that they destroyed a weapons cache; we have been unable to verify this'. 

5 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Have you proof that the Israeli girls and women were not tortured and raped and the Israeli lie about this? I mean were the Hamas body cameras which filmed it in real time and screened it gleefully to the world just some Israeli hoax?

I absolutely believe that these horrible things happened. There's enough evidence and reporting from many sources that I believe it. I wasn't doubting these things. But I believe it because it didn't just come from the IDF. The IDF did, 100%, lie about things like beheaded babies. The IDF lied about things like 'hostages were stored here' by using a calendar listing the days of the week as names of terrorists. They showed an elevator shaft and claimed it was a secret tunnel. They took a video of a grieving woman and put in inaccurate translations claiming she was screaming that Hamas was to be blamed. And that's just this war - there are well-documented examples of the IDF deliberately covering things up, lying about incidents, etc. 

To be clear I was not saying that the rapes were inaccurate; I was responding to @Fragile Bird's decrying us saying that the IDF has been dishonest and implying they hadn't been.  

5 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

About the preferences of deaths of our children we will have to agree to disagree.

Okay. In particular given that they are not my friends and family either way, I consider killing 1200 civilians to be not as bad as killing 15000. Even if those 1200 were killed in absolutely horrible ways. It's a bit odd to me that you of all people would consider murdering more people impersonally to be more acceptable, but so it goes.

[GrimTuesday]

The IDF has erected a 13 meter high menorah in the Gaza strip. I don't see how this can be seen as anything but a provocation.

 

5 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Why do you think the Israeli authorities are dishonest?

Maybe because they are constantly being caught lying and they have a vested interest in inflating the atrocities of Hamas and the other groups that perpetrated October 7th due to the fact that public sentiment is turning against them due to how brutal and disproportionate their response has been.

There is no doubt that sexual assault happened, it is far more unbelievable (and silly) to say that there was zero sexual assaults, but the implication that it was organized or widespread is what is suspect.

9 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Ah yes, BBC, the notorious pro-Israeli propaganda rag.  

The BBC absolutely falls into the trap that many other supposedly non-biased news sources where in order to maintain that reputation of being non-biased, they are prone to giving credence to dishonest actors.

[Kalbear]

46 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I think this is the result of a game of broken telephone. They are considering flooding the tunnels with sea water, yes, but this is a long term solution. They're not going to do it while the hostages are still in the tunnels -- among other things, that would cause the people who ordered this to go on trial in Israel.

I don't think this is quite the amazing argument that you think it is - flooding the tunnels with sea water is going to effectively make the entire region barren for generations and remove what little potable water there is left there. Doing it after saving the hostages is better, but it is still an environmental catastrophe that almost guarantees that the region cannot sustain life without massive support from the outside. 

It is quite literally the same as salting the earth of Carthage.

[Altherion]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

In particular given that they are not my friends and family either way, I consider killing 1200 civilians to be not as bad as killing 15000.

Well, with that phrasing, it would be... except that of course in this case (1) there have not been 15000 civilians killed (remember, the numbers reported by Hamas are always the sum of terrorist casualties and civilian ones) and (2) the 1200 were deliberately killed in order to start a war whereas the 10000 or so were killed because they were being used as human shields by the people who started the war.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Well, with that phrasing, it would be... except that of course in this case (1) there have not been 15000 civilians killed (remember, the numbers reported by Hamas are always the sum of terrorist casualties and civilian ones)

Citation needed. 

Also note that the (now 16000) deaths reported by the Hamas hospital authorities are only the ones that they have been able to confirm a body for, and only those killed in bombings. Many thousands more are likely dead, buried in rubble, killed when their hospital services failed, dead because of lack of food or water or shelter. The true accounting of it will not be known for a long time. 

2 minutes ago, Altherion said:

and (2) the 1200 were deliberately killed in order to start a war whereas the 10000 or so were killed because they were being used as human shields by the people who started the war.

Citation needed that they were being used as human shields deliberately and that all of them were killed in this way. As an example, a reporter in Lebanon was killed by a tank round that Human Rights Watch is considering to be a deliberate targeting. Were they a human shield? 

As I said several threads ago it's certainly possible that none of these casualties could have been avoided, or it's possible that all of them could be avoided, and we will almost certainly never know whether these are legitimate collateral damage or war crimes. It hardly matters. Is it better to kill 10000 in a war or a few dozen in a dinner?