Israel - Hamas War XII

[Altherion]

16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I'm pretty sure that genocide was leveled at Russia against Ukraine, especially since they're also doing things like abducting children and forcefully educating them in Russian. Yemen is also often cited as a horrible human rights problem. I won't speak to Azerbaijan as I don't know a ton about it.

What Russia did is orders of magnitude worse, but it's not the focus of the reporting on the Ukraine war (people mainly talk about how the war itself is going). Yemen is barely mentioned anywhere at all -- ironically, it's getting more attention now that it has for years.

16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

And even then Israel often looks worse. Russia tried to deny Ukraine power during the winter; Israel did do so. Russia didn't stop all food and water from entering Ukraine and was rightfully condemned for stopping shipments of grain out, but Israel did stop those things. And Yemen allows in a whole lot of supplies by comparison!

Israel stopped supplies for only a brief period of time and turning off the power in Ukraine during the winter is a very different measure from turning it off in Gaza (look at the two climates).

17 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I also don't think it's such a great argument that Israel is okay because they're behaving like Russia, the Houthis and Azerbaijan.

Except that is not my argument at all; that is you trying to put words into my mouth. My argument is that Israel is behaving much, much better than most parties in contemporary conflicts and despite this gets a lot more criticism than the latter.

17 hours ago, Kalbear said:

How many people have to die before it's called a genocide? Do you know the answer? 

No. Furthermore, I don't think there is a clear answer to this; international law does not deal with numbers like that. Furthermore, it's not clear how many of the people being killed are Hamas fighters -- the Israelis say roughly 1 out of 3 which seems optimistic and Hamas does not provide this information at all.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Altherion said:

What Russia did is orders of magnitude worse, but it's not the focus of the reporting on the Ukraine war (people mainly talk about how the war itself is going). Yemen is barely mentioned anywhere at all -- ironically, it's getting more attention now that it has for years.

Why report on it while nothing has changed? As atrocities are uncovered they're reported on reliably. Maybe you aren't reading them? For example, 4 Russians just got charged with war crimes and could face life in prison if actually captured.

Just now, Altherion said:

Israel stopped supplies for only a brief period of time and turning off the power in Ukraine during the winter is a very different measure from turning it off in Gaza (look at the two climates).

Israel stopped sufficient supplies and has continued to do so - Gaza is receiving 1/10th of the food and water that they had needed. Fuel only got turned on recently, and only for very specific requirements. People are burning wood furniture for cooking. And turning off the power has some major effects, like (for example) not having hospitals operate successfully, or not having communications access. 

But again - is your argument that Israel and Russia should be treated comparably? 

Just now, Altherion said:

Except that is not my argument at all; that is you trying to put words into my mouth. My argument is that Israel is behaving much, much better than most parties in contemporary conflicts and despite this gets a lot more criticism than the latter.

I don't think that's accurate as far as behavior. A big example: Russia even facilitated evacuations of areas under attack and waited for attacks. 

And again, Israel should likely be held to a much higher standard than Russia or Yemen. But again, if you want to advocate that Israel should be treated the same way as Russia and Yemen has been as far as sanctions, blockade, international condemnation - I'm sure you and @GrimTuesday will get along just fine.

Just now, Altherion said:

No. Furthermore, I don't think there is a clear answer to this; international law does not deal with numbers like that. Furthermore, it's not clear how many of the people being killed are Hamas fighters -- the Israelis say roughly 1 out of 3 which seems optimistic and Hamas does not provide this information at all.

The answer, by the way, is zero. There is no requirement of death for a genocide to have been attempted or occurred. Both in US law and in international law. 

[Kalbear]

Israeli hostages tell about the terror and suffering they experienced as hostages from both Israel and Hamas:

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkqi3ypsa

Quote

 

A former captive from Kibbutz Nir Oz, who was recently released as part of the deal, said: "I experienced captivity and I understand its hardships. Every day in captivity was extremely challenging. We were in tunnels, terrified that it would not be Hamas, but Israel, that would kill us, and then they would say Hamas killed you. So, I strongly urge that the prisoner exchange begins as soon as possible and everyone needs to return home. There should be no hierarchy. Everyone is equally important."

Another former hostage who returned with her children, but whose husband remains in Hamas captivity, said: "We felt as though no one was doing anything for us. The reality is that I was in a hideout that was bombed and we became wounded refugees. This doesn't even include the helicopter that fired at us on our way to Gaza. You claim there is intelligence, but the reality is that we were being bombed. My husband was separated from us three days before we returned to Israel and was taken to the tunnels. And you're talking about flooding the tunnels with seawater? You are bombing tunnel routes exactly where they are located. My daughters ask me where their father is, and I have to tell them that the bad guys still don't want to release him."

 

Definitely appears my hypothesis that Israel had a good understanding of where the hostages were was pretty wrong. 

[Craving Peaches]

There are reports that Israel is considering flooding the tunnels with seawater.

[TrueMetis]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There are reports that Israel is considering flooding the tunnels with seawater.

Which is just a dozen kinds of stupid, and not just because they're apparently deciding fuck the hostages but in a "Hey we're already facing issues with soil and ground water salination because of how much water we've pumped out of the local aquifers, let's make things even worse by deliberately flooding the land with salt water" way. Though if you're the kind of country that deliberately destroys millions of thousand year old olive trees I guess taking care of the land isn't much of a concern.

Edited December 6, 2023 by TrueMetis

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There are reports that Israel is considering flooding the tunnels with seawater.

Yup. Something that apparently could potentially spoil fresh water from wells for a very long time. 

And imagine the agony of the rescued hostages knowing that their family members or friends are down in those tunnels... 

 

Quote

But if several million cubic meters were pumped into the tunnels, and seeped into the aquifer, “the negative impact on groundwater quality would last for several generations, depending on the amount that infiltrates into the subsurface,” he said.

Israel would hardly feel the effect, he went on, because the coastal aquifer’s water flows from Israel to Gaza.

Nevertheless, Adar added, he would “hesitate about destroying a massive natural resource.”

“As a citizen, despite the disaster that we experienced on October 7, I still think that in the long run — and we have to think of the future — it would be politically and morally incorrect to have a thirsty neighbor,” he said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/flooding-hamas-tunnels-could-harm-gazas-freshwater-for-generations-warns-academic/

[Clueless Northman]

4 hours ago, Altherion said:

Except that is not my argument at all; that is you trying to put words into my mouth. My argument is that Israel is behaving much, much better than most parties in contemporary conflicts and despite this gets a lot more criticism than the latter.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

Also, looks like Netanyahu wants to do a Tywin Lannister on Hamas. That's going to end well...

Edited December 6, 2023 by Clueless Northman

[Zorral]

Not only are there no safe places for Palestinian civilians to go, there is NOWHERE for Palestinian civilians to go.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/12/6/23990868/gaza-humanitarian-crisis-evacuate-safe-zones

Quote

 

... As a revealing statement from the UN children’s agency, Unicef, makes clear, places safe from violence in Gaza — that also have the resources people need to survive — are not just scarce, they’re virtually nonexistent.

“There are no safe zones in Gaza,” James Elder, a Unicef spokesperson, told the BBC. “These are tiny patches of barren land. They have no water, no facilities, no shelter from the cold, no sanitation.”

Elder’s quote underscores the limitations that civilians in the region now face because of the Israeli government’s military offensive and because of longstanding restrictions on people’s movement. All told, Gaza is 140 square miles, smaller than a third the size of the city of Los Angeles, according to the Los Angeles Times. Its residents are limited in their ability to leave Gaza due to an ongoing blockade the territory has been under since 2007 and because Israel and Egypt, its two bordering countries, have refused to take in refugees. Mobility is also challenging since airstrikes have damaged roads in the territory and fuel remains extremely scarce. ....

 

 

[Zorral]

I didn't know the history of the keffiyeh,. never thought about it, until recently.  Lo and behold VOX is here to help me out.  It's interesting,  That Nelson Mandela wore one in a photo at some point in his battle against apartheid is particularly interesting in light of the scarf's later history.

How the keffiyeh became a symbol of the Palestinian cause
The iconic Palestinian scarf started out as a practical garment. It became an emblem of an aspiring nation.

https://www.vox.com/2023/12/6/23990673/keffiyeh-symbolism-palestinian-history

Quote

 

.... The keffiyeh served a practical purpose for the men who wore it back then, protecting them from harsh climate conditions, including excessive sun exposure and dust storms. It also indicated a person’s social status: While the keffiyeh was often associated with peasants, the tarbush, a red felt hat, was often worn by more urban, middle- and upper-class Palestinians.

But that began to change after the British took control of Palestine, according to a paper by Ted Swedenburg, an emeritus professor of anthropology at the University of Arkansas who has studied the keffiyeh. In 1936, when Palestinians launched an uprising against the British occupation, the armed Palestinian rebel groups, which were largely made up of poorer men, essentially used the keffiyeh as their uniform. That made it easier for the British to target them when they were in urban areas, and so as the fighting escalated, rebel leaders urged all Palestinian men to ditch the tarbush and don the keffiyeh instead. ....

 

 

[Gorn]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:37 PM, Kalbear said:

How many people have to die before it's called a genocide? Do you know the answer? 

A very good question, which was actually recently answered by the Hague tribunals for former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. To quote the Mladic verdict (which I will focus on, to keep things relatively simple):

Quote

Where only part of a protected group is targeted that part must constitute a substantial part of that group such that it is significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole. In determining substantiality, considerations may include: the relative numerical size of the targeted part, the prominence of the part of the group within the larger whole, and the area of the perpetrators’ activity and control.

Mladic was accused of committing genocide in seven different locations in Bosnia. Only the Srebrenica Massacre (one out of seven) was found to qualify as genocide, since more than 8000 people out of population of 40 000 were killed (20%). In other six locations, the court dispassionately ruled that not enough people in total were killed, or that the number of killed did not constitute sufficiently high percentage of the targeted population, for those killings to be recognized as genocide.

For example, Prijedor ethnic cleansing, where it was proven more than 1500 people were intentionally murdered in concentration camps out of population of 56 000, was ruled to be Not a Genocide.

And yeah, I hate the fact that I know so much about the legal difference between "genocide", "crime against humanity" and "mass murder".

[GrimTuesday]

9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

And again, Israel should likely be held to a much higher standard than Russia or Yemen. But again, if you want to advocate that Israel should be treated the same way as Russia and Yemen has been as far as sanctions, blockade, international condemnation - I'm sure you and @GrimTuesday will get along just fine.

Not sure if this is supposed to be a slight against me, but... eww.

There is a distinct difference between the sanctions against Russia and theoretical sanctions against Israel. Specifically, Russia is a state that has actively built its economy to be resilient to America/Western sanctions. They have trade deals with countries that won't fall in line with American sanctions and that allows them to weather sanctions (though they do still get hurt) to some extent.

Israel on the other hand, is much more dependent on trade with America and its allies, and as such sanctions would place a significant amount of pressure on Israel. Sanctions are far more effective against our allies than they are against most of our enemies.

The discussion yesterday in regards to a state created by African Americans who could no long live with whites already happened, and guess what, it was a colonial state where the Americo-Liberian colonists recreated the American system but with them taking the place of the white ruling class because they believed themselves to be culturally superior to what they saw as the backwards savages that were the native populations. Ironically, there are significant parallels between Liberia and Israel.

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

colonial state where the Americo-Liberian colonists recreated the American system but with them taking the place of the white ruling class because they believed themselves to be culturally superior to what they saw as the backwards savages that were the native populations. Ironically, there are significant parallels between Liberia and Israel.

That is not accurate in the least as to what happened in that manufactured state of Liberia.

[GrimTuesday]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

That is not accurate in the least as to what happened in that manufactured state of Liberia.

Could you explain how this is inaccurate, because as far as I know this is more or less how this went down. I have seen many people compare Liberia to Israel and in my reading about it, there certainly are parallels.

Unless you are talking about the fact that whites saw it as an alternative to actually having to co-exist with emancipated blacks (I'm blanking on the actual term of this at the moment). In which case, there is still a parallel to Israel, in so far as many non-Jews who supported the Zionist movement in Europe were virulently antisemitic who saw it as a way to get the Jews out of Europe.

Edited December 7, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Relic]

14 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Israeli hostages tell about the terror and suffering they experienced as hostages from both Israel and Hamas:

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkqi3ypsa

Definitely appears my hypothesis that Israel had a good understanding of where the hostages were was pretty wrong. 

But hey, remember, that this Israeli government's number one priority is retrieval of hostages. We know that to be true because they said so!

Edited December 7, 2023 by Relic

[Crixus]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:38 PM, JoannaL said:

another very disturbing  (and by German definition antisemitic) article by Grata Thunberg regarding the Gaza war.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/gaza-climate-justice-human-rights-greta-thunberg

content: october 7 only half a sentence and worse: Israel committing "genocide"

In Germany this is all over the news again. Friday for Future Germany which is historically a very strong section of FFF is fighing for weeks now to distant themselves from Greta, but this time it may be just too much. the whole climate movement it Germany is flailing because ot this totally unnecessary involvement in the Hamas attack and following war.

Personally I can say that at my daughthers school all FFF groups and activities stopped about 5 weeks ago. No one is doing anything for the climate any longer, which is stupid, because climate problems will not go away only because some activits are antisemites (though they would claim they aren't). But perhaps another movement, which is not FFF ,  is needed now.

 

 

I'm sorry, where exactly is the antisemitism?? She isn't even saying it directly, she's quoting actual UN and other experts - like Dr. Raz Segal (who is Jewish) - who say it is. But I suppose they are all colluding against Israel, right? Funny how experts are cited in the Covid thread, the Ukraine threads, and others, but suddenly lack credibility here. 

Once again, it seems Israel should be utterly immune from any criticism whilst they kill thousands of innocents: even the IDF says more than 15,000 have been killed, of which they say 5,000 are Hamas - that still leaves 10,000 innocent people https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/. Should the world just stay silent and ignore this, or be afraid to condemn a shocking, ongoing civilian death-toll because they may be accused of being antisemitic? 

As for your comment about 'half a sentence': that attack was barbaric and atrocious and evil. It also happened 2 months ago, whereas children, women and men in Gaza are getting killed by the hundreds every day right now, excepting the short pause. I should think the fact that a live, ongoing situation is getting more attention, is logical. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Don't read too much into the Friday's for Future thing in Germany. 

Climate protestors have become one of the most hated groups by a lot of people in German language countries because next to nobody wants to hear that we might not solve this problem by just switching to greener technologies. The "centrists" have moved away from pretending the care about doing anything before this anyway. 

Regional governments are trying to declare protestors blocking streets terrorists and in Austria they trying to prosecute them with anti-organized crime laws. At least in Austria the state will probably lose in court but the people will be financially ruined(same thing happend to anti-factory farming protestors years ago).

Greta being pro-Palestinian is just a welcome excuse.

[JoannaL]

44 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Don't read too much into the Friday's for Future thing in Germany. 

Climate protestors have become one of the most hated groups by a lot of people in German language countries because next to nobody wants to hear that we might not solve this problem by just switching to greener technologies. The "centrists" have moved away from pretending the care about doing anything before this anyway. 

Regional governments are trying to declare protestors blocking streets terrorists and in Austria they trying to prosecute them with anti-organized crime laws. At least in Austria the state will probably lose in court but the people will be financially ruined(same thing happend to anti-factory farming protestors years ago).

Greta being pro-Palestinian is just a welcome excuse.

but you talk about two differnt groups: there is the "last generation" (and sometimes Extinction rebellion), that is blocking streets and so on and there is court action against them, and a lot of bad press.

And there is Fridays for Future , which was always the friendly- neighbour next door- kind of protest which was supported by almost everyone. Greta Thunberg was some kind of national hero in Germany. when a satirist dared to make a joke about her he was almost publicly crucified. Now this is all over - and you may be right there may be people who are glad that they could also destroy FFF. But before October 7th FFF was well established here and there were tons of politians which liked to be seen with them and there were no prosecution or court action against them that I know of.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Relic said:

But hey, remember, that this Israeli government's number one priority is retrieval of hostages. We know that to be true because they said so!

It is their number one priority. Their statements and actions over the years have demonstrated that. However, it's impossible to both rescue all of them and also destroy Hamas at the same time. And the latter is banking on that. 

[JoannaL]

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

I'm sorry, where exactly is the antisemitism?? She isn't even saying it directly, she's quoting actual UN and other experts - like Dr. Raz Segal (who is Jewish) - who say it is. But I suppose they are all colluding against Israel, right? Funny how experts are cited in the Covid thread, the Ukraine threads, and others, but suddenly lack credibility here. 

Once again, it seems Israel should be utterly immune from any criticism whilst they kill thousands of innocents: even the IDF says more than 15,000 have been killed, of which they say 5,000 are Hamas - that still leaves 10,000 innocent people https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/. Should the world just stay silent and ignore this, or be afraid to condemn a shocking, ongoing civilian death-toll because they may be accused of being antisemitic? 

As for your comment about 'half a sentence': that attack was barbaric and atrocious and evil. It also happened 2 months ago, whereas children, women and men in Gaza are getting killed by the hundreds every day right now, excepting the short pause. I should think the fact that a live, ongoing situation is getting more attention, is logical. 

Obviously it is allowed and possible to critizise Israel.

when is a critic antisemitic  and why do I (and a lot of other people) think Greta qualifies?

I went to our governmental sites to see if I could find a useful definiton of antisemitism and they  link to the IRHA site about this:

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

there are examples for antisemitism  e.g.:

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

 

 

 

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

35 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

but you talk about two differnt groups: there is the "last generation" (and sometimes Extinction rebellion), that is blocking streets and so on and there is court action against them, and a lot of bad press.

And there is Fridays for Future , which was always the friendly- neighbour next door- kind of protest which was supported by almost everyone. Greta Thunberg was some kind of national hero in Germany. when a satirist dared to make a joke about her he was almost publicly crucified. Now this is all over - and you may be right there may be people who are glad that they could also destroy FFF. But before October 7th FFF was well established here and there were tons of politians which liked to be seen with them and there were no prosecution or court action against them that I know of.

I'm a blue collar worker. The hate for FFF was pretty strong from the first time they marched on roads. The part of society that was friendly towards FFF public was a bourgeois bubble that has now popped.

Edit: the only tolerated protest is standing on a square not inconveniencing anybody.

But this is getting too off-topic I feel.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand