Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They got some back but not because they liberated them. The ones they did get back, they got back through negotiations.

They got them back by raining hell on the organization that took them. Then they got as many back as negotiations would allow. 

[GrimTuesday]

Israel has killed more hostages than they have gotten back through their military actions. Hamas (who is bad and should never have taken hostages or carried out the October attack in the first place) was willing to trade hostages on October 8th, so if the main goal for Israel was to get them, they could have gotten them back then.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Israel has killed more hostages than they have gotten back through their military actions. 

This is idiotic. More than a third of the hostages have been released and it was because of the military campaign. 

And no they weren't willing to start trading them back the day after nor should any government accept those terms. 

 

Edited January 17 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Jace, Extat]

2 hours ago, straits said:

They have not "embedded" themselves in an urban center. They grew up in the ghetto that it is. And all of their violence and resistance - organized or not - has adapted to the surroundings. There is no scenario where Israel will tolerate well-delineated army barracks and military areas without actually destroying them the moment they can be called a proper military institution. This outcome is entirely logical.

 

Then maybe they should have spent the billions of U.N. dollars they took on something other than tunnels and rockets to facilitate the killing of Jews. 

This outcome is entirely logical.

23 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Just wondering: Weren't the US "freedom fighters", or "colonial rebels", depending on who you ask, actually embedded in the colonies' urban centers, the towns and the overall civilian population? As does, basically, every resistance movement, every guerrilla, including the numerous anti-Nazi resistances across Europe? Aren't right some Ukrainian troops more or less embedded across the major cities, be it Kiev or Mariupol during the siege? Isn't this quite a given, as long as armies don't go the old way and do typical field battles between standing armies, out in the open, far from urban centres?

I don't think those organizations fired missiles out of hospitals, but you make a fair point.

As far as it goes, though, it doesn't change the realities of fighting them out of Gaza.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

 I think you're looking at it from a place of supreme advantage, and I don't think Israel has that luxury.

Ironic, when you obviously believe Israel has the luxury of turning millions of people literally living on its doorstep into mortal enemies for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the fact that there are Palestinians living in Israel.
But I suppose your vision of the future entails continued surveillance and oppression, combined with maintaining military strength, doesn't it? The alternative would be full-blown ethnic cleansing of course. Do you stilll oppose that at least, or does your "end justifies the means" philosophy allow for this as well?

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

I know exactly what I'm supporting.

Do you, really? I thought you hated Trumpism, but you've already embraced most of its core principles.
Behind the pretense of despair, you were hiding just how much you love these ideas all along. The resoluteness. The determination. The raw strength. "The first duty of a state is the security of its citizens." The courage to do and say what is right, even when half the board will hate your guts for it. The "not a single soldier should be sacrificed for political gain" line. The enemy "hiding behind international law."
You love that shit, you really do. ROTFL, you're the real deal, and you can't even hide it anymore.

Jace, baby, you just made my fucking day.

Edit: for real though, I do hope this is just mind-blowingly brilliant performance art...
 

Edited January 17 by Rippounet

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

Do they?

The last couple of pages show that while there's an agreement that Netanyahu is appalling, there's considerable disagreement over whether how he and his government have chosen to prosecute this operation against Hamas is appalling. That's where the discussion is, and that there isn't a parallel discussion about how Hamas have chosen to operate is surely not a surprise?

It is surprising indeed. Any rational person should agree Hamas must go. But how do you do it? Asking nicely? Focusing on Netanyahu is a mistake because any leader in the same position would likely do the same thing. 

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

This is idiotic. More than a third of the hostages have been released. 

 

And how was that achieved? Was it through IDF soldiers on the ground kicking down doors and freeing them from their captors, or was it through negotiations that could have happened whether or not there was an ongoing military operation? The answer is, of course the latter, there is no evidence that Israel's military actions influenced anything, in fact as you and other love to say, Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians so from that perspective it's pretty silly to think the flattening of Gaza would enter into their calculus.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

And how was that achieved? Was it through IDF soldiers on the ground kicking down doors and freeing them from their captors, or was it through negotiations that could have happened whether or not there was an ongoing military operation? The answer is, of course the latter, there is no evidence that Israel's military actions influenced anything, in fact as you and other love to say, Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians so from that perspective it's pretty silly to think the flattening of Gaza would enter into their calculus.

No, it absolutely is not. You can't negotiate with people who just killed more people in one day than any since the Holocaust, took nearly 250 hostages and said their goal is to kill all of you. 

[Jace, Extat]

47 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Ironic, when you obviously believe Israel has the luxury of turning millions of people literally living on its doorstep into mortal enemies for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the fact that there are Palestinians living in Israel.
But I suppose your vision of the future entails continued surveillance and oppression, combined with maintaining military strength, doesn't it? The alternative would be full-blown ethnic cleansing of course. Do you stilll oppose that at least, or does your "end justifies the means" philosophy allow for this as well?

 

Well I didn't think it was pragmatism vs naivete until just now - 

I mean, did you really think anything else was possible? Serious question, before I return serve on the rest of your post. What did you think was gonna happen? 

Because my heart broke on the 7th. For Palestinians and Israelis both. I knew what was going to happen and I spent like five days trying to wrap my heart back together. I couldn't bear to watch the news any more than to see if there was any update on the hostages. 

I view this all as a horrid inevitability, and have since the first bomb dropped. I'm salted to it now because I didn't expect anything else. 

(Palestinians in Israel are Israeli, as far as I understand. Citizens of Israel.)

47 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

 

Do you, really? I thought you hated Trumpism, but you've already embraced most of its core principles.
Behind the pretense of despair, you were hiding just how much you love these ideas all along. The resoluteness. The determination. The raw strength. "The first duty of a state is the security of its citizens." The courage to do and say what is right, even when half the board will hate your guts for it. The "not a single soldier should be sacrificed for political gain" line. The enemy "hiding behind international law."
You love that shit, you really do. ROTFL, you're the real deal, and you can't even hide it anymore.

Jace, baby, you just made my fucking day.

Yes! Yes! More! Gimme more, baby!   This is the best shit I read in a year. 

I've never denied being a Red in Blue clothing. It's in my name.  But I chose Blue. I didn't get raised into my beliefs in some idyllic chateau or braindead peer pressure incubator. I paid a lot to be a Democrat, and I don't think I'll join the Reds anytime soon at all thank you very much. 

Man, I like you.

 

Eta: I wrote "title" when I meant "name".

Edited January 17 by Jace, Extat

[fionwe1987]

8 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I'm talking about in these threads. Move the goalposts more all you need to. 

Yeah, no one else is talking about these threads. You see, most of us care about and experience the real world, and come to these threads to discuss that. We don't start with these threads and experience the real world based on the balance of Hamas vs. Israel criticism here. 

16 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, it absolutely is not. You can't negotiate with people who just killed more people in one day than any since the Holocaust, took nearly 250 hostages and said their goal is to kill all of you. 

Yet Israel did negotiate with Hamas, and that is how it got back the hostages it did get back.

And of course, it liberated those three hostages that escaped. Except they were liberated from life itself. Bravo. 

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, fionwe1987 said:

 

And of course, it liberated those three hostages that escaped. Except they were liberated from life itself. Bravo. 

Whoa!

[Zorral]

38 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

But how do you do it?

It's already been proven over and over that not by the current 'war' by Israel on Gaza.  It only makes Hamas stronger, and all the collateral terrorist babies its birthing in place of all the Palestinian babies it's been killing.

Edited January 17 by Zorral

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

Hamas got by for years and years by hiding behind human shields and international law.

They got very very very strong from all the money and hands off Bibi&cohorts provided because bibi&cohorts were so gddamned corrupt, criminal and arrogant in their corrupt criminality they made Hamas strong in security to make Great Big Plans, that they successfully carried out, which has further divided the forces for democracy, which authoritarian, ethnic cleansing bibi&cohorts don't want anyway.

[GrimTuesday]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, it absolutely is not. You can't negotiate with people who just killed more people in one day than any since the Holocaust, took nearly 250 hostages and said their goal is to kill all of you. 

I think you will find that you can negotiate with them. Violent retaliation through indiscriminate bombing is not some kind of inevitable force of nature, you can absolutely choose how you react to something. This idea that you can't negotiate with terrorist is just a way to perpetuate the cycle of violence. Terrorism generally evolves out of unaddressed grievances that were done against them with the exception of groups like salafist jihadists who are zealots who seek to enforce their warped brand of Islam on others. Some of these are legitimate, some are not, some exist in shades of grey.

The fact of the matter is the only way to actually stop the vast majority of terrorist groups is to find a way to address their grievances. This of course does not mean allowing Hamas to commit a genocide of their own, but Israel creates the material conditions that leads to radicalization and drives more Palestinians into the arms of Hamas and other terrorist groups. 

[Zorral]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

ou can't negotiate with people who just killed more people in one day than any since the Holocaust,

Israel has killed more innocent people, intentionally, in one day than that one day.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yeah, no one else is talking about these threads. You see, most of us care about and experience the real world, and come to these threads to discuss that. We don't start with these threads and experience the real world based on the balance of Hamas vs. Israel criticism here. 

Yet Israel did negotiate with Hamas, and that is how it got back the hostages it did get back.

And of course, it liberated those three hostages that escaped. Except they were liberated from life itself. Bravo. 

They did negotiate, after they got their asses kicked. That's the real world. And then Hamas refused to give more hostages that Israel wanted, so the fighting restarted. 

18 minutes ago, Zorral said:

It's already been proven over and over that not by the current 'war' by Israel on Gaza.  It only makes Hamas stronger, and all the collateral terrorist babies its birthing in place of all the Palestinian babies it's been killing.

Well close to 25% of Hamas fighters are now dead. Obviously the war will create future problems, but doing nothing wasn't something any government could do. Hamas has to go. If you don't believe that, say it. 

13 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I think you will find that you can negotiate with them.

You could before. And you can make short term deals, but after what happened there's no going back. Hamas has to go. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Israel has killed more innocent people, intentionally, in one day than that one day.

I can't find a single article that confirms this claim. 

[Rippounet]

Damn Jace, and here I was starting to actually think that you were just messing with us, and that this was one of the most elaborate pranks the forum has ever seen. I'm kinda disappointed.

3 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

I mean, did you really think anything else was possible?

Than what we're seeing? Yes. It all depended on how much decision-making power Netanyahu would harness, whether smart people in key places would be able to counter-balance his agenda.
It doesn't show right now, but I grew up hearing stories of how fucking good Israel was at strategic thinking. You always had the ruthlessness, yes, because deterrence was seen as a necessary evil, and no one who fucked with us could be allowed to escape with their life, but there were also contingency plans and long-term thinking. The "tenth man rule" was not just a story: you never went all in on a given plan, you always kept reserves, always kept a hidden ace. Political power could never ignore intelligence, and the ramifications of any important decision had to be carefully weighed for as long as possible. It had to be, because if Jews were to ensure that the holocaust would never happen again, they had to be smarter than anyone could imagine. Never. Again. Being ready to fight would not be enough, some would have to study it, to understand it, to infiltrate it if need be, so that we always remained one step ahead.
That's what it meant, to never forget.

Just stories I guess.

[GrimTuesday]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

They did negotiate, after they got their asses kicked. That's the real world. And then Hamas refused to give more hostages that Israel wanted, so the fighting restarted. 

Well close to 25% of Hamas fighters are now dead. Obviously the war will create future problems, but doing nothing wasn't something any government could do. Hamas has to go. If you don't believe that, say it. 

You could before. And you can make short term deals, but after what happened there's no going back. Hamas has to go. 

Hamas does have to go, but bombing Gaza is not the way to do it. All Israel is doing is creating an even more desperate situation for Palestinians which will only swell their ranks.

As for the number of fighters killed, we really have no clue. There is a frankly disgusting assumption that just because 2/3rds of Gazans killed were women and children, the remaining 1/3rd is all Hamas terrorists because they are "military aged males". The men of Palestine are human too, most of them are not probably not Hamas and the ill will they have towards Israelis stems from the brutality of the occupation.

There seems to be no will by most Israelis, or at least those in power to understand the Palestinian people's grievances, and that is why the cycle of violence will continue. The wound can never heal until you completely remove the knife and Israel doesn't even acknowledge the knife exists.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Not to mention the fact that there are Palestinians living in Israel.

she doesnt think palestinians are legetimate citizens of israel, at least she is honest. that is the reality of the millions living in the best democracy of the middle east, when they say that israel is not really an appartheid state cuz of the palestinians living in israel, this is the reallity of it, they are not israeli citizens they are temporarly living in israeli territory.

and this is not the first time jace has gone masks off, she is a liberal after all, she is with us, she is a realist!