Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[House Balstroko]

57 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

That's not their intent, but sure as shit seems like the longer term outcome. 

The long term problem is that even if Hamas goes, there will be a new set of radicals to take over. That’s why ensuring the Palestinians get a state not tied to Israel is of the utmost importance. That way, many of the arguments used against Israel can vanish, even if in practice there will always be an element of radicalism present in both societies. 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

That's not their intent, but sure as shit seems like the longer term outcome. 

So for the past many many threads, we've heard you and others here justify the many civilians deaths as an inevitable side effect of destroying Hamas, even as many of us pointed out the opposite is what will occur.

If Hamas is only going to get stronger... What were those deaths for? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So for the past many many threads, we've heard you and others here justify the many civilians deaths as an inevitable side effect of destroying Hamas, even as many of us pointed out the opposite is what will occur.

If Hamas is only going to get stronger... What were those deaths for? 

Two things can be true at once. Hamas has to be destroyed. It's a totally rational decision. Also, the only way to do it if they don't surrender will create a lot of problems down the road. 

[SaffronLady]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Hamas has to be destroyed. It's a totally rational decision.

... Right. The anti-occupation La Resistance must be destroyed, so the colonizers could settle in their cushy and cozy new home. It's a totally rational decision, of course.

[fionwe1987]

21 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Two things can be true at once. Hamas has to be destroyed. It's a totally rational decision. Also, the only way to do it if they don't surrender will create a lot of problems down the road. 

That makes no sense. Hamas has to be destroyed so you make it stronger? Is this some 48 dimensional chess move I'm not getting? 

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

That's not their intent, but sure as shit seems like the longer term outcome. 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Two things can be true at once. Hamas has to be destroyed. It's a totally rational decision. Also, the only way to do it if they don't surrender will create a lot of problems down the road. 

I will state that is very much the intent. That or intended to seed and grow the next one.

For all the talk of how much you are against Nentanyahu, you have been consistently kind to his nature and intent. He was very ready to full out manipulate the situation and done so.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

That makes no sense. Hamas has to be destroyed so you make it stronger? Is this some 48 dimensional chess move I'm not getting? 

The goal of Hamas is to end the Jewish state of Israel and has openly said they're only going to attack more. You cannot abide that. The problem is the only way to get rid of them will cause something else to follow up that will likely be the same unless there's a total shift in mindset on both sides as I've said several times. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Seems to me the Israeli government is intent on not just giving Hamas a reason to continue, but doing all it can to strengthen the organization. 

Likud and Netanyahu are horrible.  They want Hamas to continue so they can attempt to paint all Palestinians… (wrongly) as Hamas.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

... Right. The anti-occupation La Resistance must be destroyed, so the colonizers could settle in their cushy and cozy new home. It's a totally rational decision, of course.

Hamas chose to murder more that two hundred people at a music festival and took civilian men, women, and children as hostages.  What Israel has done to Palestinians is wrong… but it doesn’t justify or excuse the evils committed by Hamas.

Edited January 19 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

The goal of Hamas is to end the Jewish state of Israel and has openly said they're only going to attack more. You cannot abide that. The problem is the only way to get rid of them will cause something else to follow up that will likely be the same unless there's a total shift in mindset on both sides as I've said several 

10/07 required massive planning and acquiring the weaponary in Hamas. It also required the biggest and absolute failure of Israeli Intelligence including months of ignoring warnings from troops on Gaza border that was sent constantly and ignored as well. Those are aspects that no longer have and would not of for a long time. 

Waging a full scale against a populace will not get rid of it unless in the end you think the entire populace is the issue.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

51 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

10/07 required massive planning and acquiring the weaponary in Hamas. It also required the biggest and absolute failure of Israeli Intelligence including months of ignoring warnings from troops on Gaza border that was sent constantly and ignored as well. Those are aspects that no longer have and would not of for a long time. 

Waging a full scale against a populace will not get rid of it unless in the end you think the entire populace is the issue.

 

It's literally the governing body and their stated goal is clear. Leaving them in place is not a reasonable response. 

So that begs the blunt question, do you think Hamas should still run Gaza? 

[SaffronLady]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

So that begs the blunt question, do you think Hamas should still run Gaza?

My preferred option is to let Fatah and Hamas run against each other in a Palestine free from the river to the sea, but this seems, tragically, unlikely.

[polishgenius]

7 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

My preferred option is to let Fatah and Hamas run against each other in a Palestine free from the river to the sea, but this seems, tragically, unlikely.

 

 

.What would you do with all the Israelis currently living there in this scenario? 

[TheKitttenGuard]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's literally the governing body and their stated goal is clear. Leaving them in place is not a reasonable response. 

So that begs the blunt question, do you think Hamas should still run Gaza? 

No, I do not. Totally destroying every aspect of Palestinian civil society is a terribly awful way to do it. This actuon is just sowing the new seeds.

I previously stated my thoughts on 10/07 aftermath. Do not care of being naive for I think supporters of this have their own.

Edited January 19 by TheKitttenGuard

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Two things can be true at once. Hamas has to be destroyed. It's a totally rational decision. Also, the only way to do it if they don't surrender will create a lot of problems down the road. 

Irrational.  Not to mention stupid and suicidal.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

What would you do with all the Israelis currently living there in this scenario? 

Same as always, leave or die.

15 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

No, I do not. Totally destroying every aspect of Palestinian civil society is not how you get rid of them. Israel doing everything to Zero Year Gaza.

I previously stated my thoughts on 10/07 aftermath. Do not care of being naive for I think supporters of this have their own.

Okay, then how would you remove Hamas? Also FYI Gaza isn't all of Palestinian society. More Palestinians live in each the WB and Jordan than in Gaza. 

Again, get basic facts right FFS.

Edited January 19 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

The goal of Hamas is to end the Jewish state of Israel and has openly said they're only going to attack more

The stated and written objective of Likud, Bibi&Co, etc. is to kill or expel all Palestinians and Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank and Israel itself, make all the land Israel, prohibit eternally any Palestinian state.  So Palestinian extremists are only going to attack more.

[fionwe1987]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It's literally the governing body and their stated goal is clear. Leaving them in place is not a reasonable response. 

No, but I don't see how an Israeli government with the same stated intention, with nuclear power and significantly greater military power, is alright to leave in place. Are non-Hamas Palestinians allowed, if they could, to bomb Israel till Likud is removed, at a similar scale to what Israel has done to Gaza?

If your answer is yes, then you hold to might makes right, and that would at least be clear. 

If your answer is no, you reveal again that to have some very twisted and bonkers views of what is going on. 

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Bravo. Equating anti-occupation resistance with genociders. Bravo.

I'm sorry, but revenge genocide, or genocide as part of a response to genuine grievance, or a struggle for freedom, is still genocide, and just as justifiable. 

That holds very much for the nonsense justifications Israel and it's boosters on this board, have been using. But so too would it for anyone who thinks Palestinians can do back to Israelis what Israelis are currently doing to them. 

 

[Zorral]

Fighting in central Gaza rages on amid hostage families’ growing doubts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/18/israel-hamas-gaza-hostages-families/

"The intense pace of combat and aerial bombardment fed concerns among the families of the more than 100 hostages who have been held in Gaza for almost 15 weeks. Many of them have pleaded with the Israeli government for a cease-fire that would allow for the negotiated release of the hostages."

Quote

 

.... The Israel Defense Forces said its troops, backed by tanks and aircraft, attacked several Hamas weapons caches and bases around Khan Younis. The IDF withdrew from the vicinity of al-Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis on Wednesday, after several days of heavy fighting that destroyed residential buildings and a cemetery and caused thousands of refugees to flee, according to the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

Combat also flared in northern Gaza, where some civilians have been trying to return home after a partial drawdown of Israeli troops in the area. Witnesses reported shelling and gunfire in several parts of Gaza City and surrounding communities. One resident provided The Washington Post with recordings of gunfire and explosions around the heavily damaged Jabalya refugee camp.

A broad communications collapse across the Gaza Strip continued into its seventh day — the longest of the many during the conflict — making it difficult to reach witnesses.

The heavy fighting continued despite Israel’s pulling out at least three divisions and declaring it had largely completed operations in the north. The number of firefights had decreased compared with the early months of the ground invasion, residents said, but shelling is still common.

“The Israeli bombing of various areas in Gaza City has not stopped,” said Mahmoud, a resident who saw civilians fleeing to al-Shifa Hospital on Wednesday afternoon during one attack. Israeli tanks in the area withdrew Thursday, he said. Like other Gazans, he spoke on the condition that his last name not be used to protect his safety.

Shukri, another Gaza City resident, said the increased combat has forced Palestinians back into the streets. “During this week, my family and I moved to three different places due to renewed bombings and clashes in the northern Gaza Strip,” he said.

The intense pace of combat and aerial bombardment fed concerns among the families of the more than 100 hostages who have been held in Gaza for almost 15 weeks. Many of them have pleaded with the Israeli government for a cease-fire that would allow for the negotiated release of the hostages.