Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[Gilbert Green]

I don't hate it, but others do:

Not really a theory but a collection of theories, all hated.  Summarized by 2 words:

MORE DRAGONS.

- Dragon from the crypts of Winterfell, seen by Summer

- Dragon in the Mountains of the Moon;

- Dragon on Skagos;

- Stone Dragons, maybe with advanced grey-scale, re-awakened by blood magic;

- The Dragon Egg that Euron threw into the sea.

- Maybe others.

It is hated for good and bad reasons:

GOOD REASON

It will probably overcomplicate the story and make it impossible for GRRM to finish in his own life.

BAD REASONS

But then Dany won't be super-special anymore.

Westeros in particular, and the World in general, is a tiny place - no way could a dragon hide anywhere.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't hate it, but others do:

Not really a theory but a collection of theories, all hated.  Summarized by 2 words:

MORE DRAGONS.

- Dragon from the crypts of Winterfell, seen by Summer

- Dragon in the Mountains of the Moon;

- Dragon on Skagos;

- Stone Dragons, maybe with advanced grey-scale, re-awakened by blood magic;

- The Dragon Egg that Euron threw into the sea.

- Maybe others.

It is hated for good and bad reasons:

GOOD REASON

It will probably overcomplicate the story and make it impossible for GRRM to finish in his own life.

BAD REASONS

But then Dany won't be super-special anymore.

Westeros in particular, and the World in general, is a tiny place - no way could a dragon hide anywhere.

Mostly agree, except for Summers "Winged Snake". I honestly can´t come up with a better explanation of what he saw then: Dragon. "Winged Snake" is pretty much what a wolf would think if he saw a dragon for the first time and when he saw it he was already quite far away from Winterfell, so that "Snake" must have been pretty big.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Mostly agree, except for Summers "Winged Snake". I honestly can´t come up with a better explanation of what he saw then: Dragon. "Winged Snake" is pretty much what a wolf would think if he saw a dragon for the first time and when he saw it he was already quite far away from Winterfell, so that "Snake" must have been pretty big.

There has also been lots of song and dance about waking dragons out of stone.  And juggling of kingsblood babies and people to keep them out of the hands of blood sorcerers who wan to this.  So Jon sends Sam south with kingsblood Aemon, kingsblood baby, and a book of dragon lore.  Sam arrives at Oldtown and falls into the hands of a cabal of blood sorcerers who are researching dragon lore.   "Yipee" says Marwin, after Sam spills his guts, and marches off to the Cinnamon Wind to grab that baby, that corpse and that book.  We have visions of a great stone beast breathing shadow fire.  Meanwhle JonCon is talking about friends in the Reach; and there is all sorts of dragon foreshadowing as Arianne journeys north to find out how Aegon managed to take Storms End.  Seems like alot of song and dance for nothing, if nothing comes of it.  But it seems that "nothing will come of it" is what most prefer to believe.

Edited January 19 by Gilbert Green

[Craving Peaches]

Winged snake is probably a dragon but they are a magic creature in their own right too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winged_serpent

There is also a 'real' flying snake, but I am fairly sure that was not what was in the vision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysopelea

[Mourning Star]

On 1/18/2024 at 4:00 PM, SaffronLady said:

A character already thought about at the start but with Targ connexions inserted later?

Depends what you mean by added later.

It would have to be confirmed later since mystery is the point, but I think it was the plan from the very start, and the clues are there.

I don't claim to be the first to suggest this, at first I scoffed, but the more you think about it the more it makes sense. Old Nan is the three eyed crow.

Hair and eye color?

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. 

This nice bit:

 "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

Nan doesn't call Bran a prince.

And she smells dragons in the red comet.

Which is even better next to this:

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

Aemon sees dragons (and the red comet), he hears them, he feels them, so it's fitting that a Targaryen could smell them too.

Aemon mentions his brothers, and how they all dreamed of dragons, but what about his sisters?

Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children?

Fear is for the long night!

I would bet that Old Nan is non other than Egg and Aemon's sister, making her a Targaryen by birth.

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"
Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click.

Nan clicks her needles as she speaks, and we see "needle" used as a euphemism for a sword, by Arya in particular.

It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

Click click click!

And of course, a needle has an eye.

On 1/18/2024 at 4:13 PM, sifth said:

I don't know, that just seems a little too convoluted if you ask me. There's hardly any Targ's even alive when the story starts and I somehow doubt Jon, Dany or Faegon are the 3EC, lol

It's actually pretty straight forward, unlike trying to explain away Bloodraven not understanding a simple question. 

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.
Are you really falling? the crow asked back.
"It's just a dream," Bran said.
Is it? asked the crow.
"I'll wake up when I hit the ground," Bran told the bird.
You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.
Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.
That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand.
"You have wings," Bran pointed out.
Maybe you do too.
Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

The crow in the dream is not confused about what kind of crow Bran means. Bran asks about wings and the crow responds in a way which shows comprehension about what Bran means.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.
"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words.

I think it's also telling how similar this is to Bran asking Sam the same question, and counting his eyes.

Bran was suddenly uncertain. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" He can't be the three-eyed crow.
"I don't think so." The fat man rolled his eyes, but there were only two of them.

But, Bloodraven is a great fit for the Weirwood in Bran's dreams.

I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me.

"There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall."

The eyes are wrong for a three eyed crow, but a two eyed tree is right for a one eyed man with a "third eye".

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

...

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Finally, I think Ned's words from chapter one, are worth recalling:

"Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous.

Edited January 23 by Mourning Star

[maesternewton]

The theory I hate the most, is that anyone can ride a dragon. They just need to domesticate. 

That the point of Nettles is to show that. 

That Asoiaf is just a more brutal version of How To Train Your Dragon.

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, maesternewton said:

The theory I hate the most, is that anyone can ride a dragon. They just need to domesticate. 

That the point of Nettles is to show that. 

That Asoiaf is just a more brutal version of How To Train Your Dragon.

I have a theory that a true knight can slay a dragon, and have no Valyrian/Targaryen heritage whatsoever.

[Kienn]

Any theory that uses 0 quotes as evidence.

More irritating though: any argument against a theory that uses 0 quotes as a rebuttal.

[SaffronLady]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:46 AM, Mourning Star said:

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.
Are you really falling? the crow asked back.
"It's just a dream," Bran said.
Is it? asked the crow.
"I'll wake up when I hit the ground," Bran told the bird.
You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.
Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.
That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand.
"You have wings," Bran pointed out.
Maybe you do too.
Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

The crow in the dream is not confused about what kind of crow Bran means. Bran asks about wings and the crow responds in a way which shows comprehension about what Bran means.

Interesting. Thank you for digging this back up.

[Craving Peaches]

22 hours ago, maesternewton said:

The theory I hate the most, is that anyone can ride a dragon. They just need to domesticate. 

That the point of Nettles is to show that. 

That Asoiaf is just a more brutal version of How To Train Your Dragon.

Dragons in HttyD and ASoIaF are quite different though.

[SaffronLady]

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Dragons in HttyD and ASoIaF are quite different though.

I think he means he dislikes people who blur the lines.

I personally believe Nettles is a dragonseed though. We do have the queen's ... strong ... sons as a support.

[Kal-L]

I don't even hate these theories but at this point these are beyond stupid to me :

Any theories about Jon's parentage that doesn't include Rhaegar and Lyanna. At this point, the debate should be about how it happened and the respective motivation of the protagonists. Anytime I see Ashara Dayne mentioned is a red flag to me.

Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne being the parent of Allyria Dayne. Aside of the fact that since the revelation we got from ADWD (coupled to the numerous holes N+A theory included), the belief that Ned was Ashara's lover makes no sense to me, the idea that Ned would have produced a bastard at Harrenhal is reaching an extreme level of irrationality.

 

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Anytime I see Ashara Dayne mentioned is a red flag to me.

I feel like the fact we are 'told' it is Ashara should auto-exclude Ashara unless GRRM is trying to be really sneaky.

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I don't even hate these theories but at this point these are beyond stupid to me :

Any theories about Jon's parentage that doesn't include Rhaegar and Lyanna. At this point, the debate should be about how it happened and the respective motivation of the protagonists.

If GRRM agreed with your attitude, he would simply tell us that Jon is the son or Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[maesternewton]

On 1/25/2024 at 6:40 PM, Gilbert Green said:

I have a theory that a true knight can slay a dragon, and have no Valyrian/Targaryen heritage whatsoever.

Err, killing and riding a dragon are two very different things. 

I don't need the keys of car to be able to destroy one. 

Edited January 27 by maesternewton
Typo

[Lord of Oldstones]

All kinds of secret child theories and especially those involving incest and  Lannisters being Aerys bastard.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Err, killing and riding a dragon are two very different things.

Right.  But you are getting all serious on me.

I agree with you that heritage can play a role in fantasy, and see no reason why it should not.  I am not an extreme ideological egalitarian.  I have no trouble with the idea that dragonriding is dependent on heritage.  I even think heritage can play a role in real life.  To put it another way, nature and nurture both play a role in human affairs.  To put it yet another way, God gives us all different gifts, for which we should be humbly grateful and not unduly proud. 

The ability to bond with a death-dealing, maiden-munching monster, for the sake of dominating one's fellow mortals, strikes me particularly as one of those gifts for which one should not be unduly proud.  One should perhaps be prouder of the courage and ability to slay such a monster.  Hence my little joke.

[Kal-L]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:07 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I feel like the fact we are 'told' it is Ashara should auto-exclude Ashara unless GRRM is trying to be really sneaky.

Especially when one of the sources happens to be Cersei Lannister.

[Craving Peaches]

The Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Despite the evidence in the text to the contrary, some people genuinely believe it.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Despite the evidence in the text to the contrary, some people genuinely believe it.

I'm guessing you mean that some readers genuinely think that incest has no negative effects when Targaryens do it?  If so, I agree that the the text provides plenty of evidence of negative effects.

The Exceptionalism doctrine is not really about that though.  It is strictly a moral issue.  It's the Targs saying that certain moral rules that apply to lesser mortals do not apply to them.