Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I have always hated ridiculous two characters being the same person theories such as Euron Greyjoy and Daario Naaris being the same or Mad Mouse being Howland Reed or Qhoryn Halfhand being Arthur Dayne.

[LongRider]

17 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Mad Mouse being Howland Reed

Everyone knows the Mad Mouse is really the Elder Brother.    

[CamiloRP]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

If it's not revealed, it didn't happen.  We're not in the real world.

I disagree, the story asks us:

"You are certain it was the wine that was poisoned?"

And I don't think we got a definitive answer, as Tyrion tells us, lying is to LF what shitting on the forest is to a bear.

Same thing with Aegon, the story poses a lot of questions about his identity, but I firmly believe we'll never get an answer about it, that doesn't mean he's Rhaegar's son.

 

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I will take this opportunity to express my utter disdain and hatred for the poison in the pie theory.  Its adherents seem to be under the mistaken impression we are reading "CSI: Westeros" or The Case of the Poisoned Prince instead of A Song of Ice and Fire.  Basing a theory on differences in reaction time to a poison is a bad idea.  GRRM tends to be careless about such details.

I care little about the reaction time, and I found the theory while searching if anyone else had thought about it, because I thought about it by myself: I came up with the theory because it makes no sense for LF to want to kill Joffrey and even less for him to team up with Olenna: what does Olenna bring to the table? What does Petyr bring to the table form Olenna's POV? How did they broach the subject?

Also LF deinitely wants a dead Tyrion, as he wants to marry Sansa. And why didn't Olenna carry the poison in her person, instead of having to stealthily take it from Sansa without anyone notice? doesn't she have pockets? Then there's the possibility of someone other than Joff not drinking the wine, maybe even Margeary, or the chalice being knocked down, like it happened.

The detail of the reaction time is a minor inconsistency, but the plan explained by Littlefinger, a known liar, makes little sense. And if a known liar tells you something that makes no sense, it's likely a lie.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I disagree, the story asks us:

"You are certain it was the wine that was poisoned?"

And I don't think we got a definitive answer, as Tyrion tells us, lying is to LF what shitting on the forest is to a bear.

Same thing with Aegon, the story poses a lot of questions about his identity, but I firmly believe we'll never get an answer about it, that doesn't mean he's Rhaegar's son.

 

I care little about the reaction time, and I found the theory while searching if anyone else had thought about it, because I thought about it by myself: I came up with the theory because it makes no sense for LF to want to kill Joffrey and even less for him to team up with Olenna: what does Olenna bring to the table? What does Petyr bring to the table form Olenna's POV? How did they broach the subject?

Also LF deinitely wants a dead Tyrion, as he wants to marry Sansa. And why didn't Olenna carry the poison in her person, instead of having to stealthily take it from Sansa without anyone notice? doesn't she have pockets? Then there's the possibility of someone other than Joff not drinking the wine, maybe even Margeary, or the chalice being knocked down, like it happened.

The detail of the reaction time is a minor inconsistency, but the plan explained by Littlefinger, a known liar, makes little sense. And if a known liar tells you something that makes no sense, it's likely a lie.

I trust Littlefinger as far as I can throw him.  But he knew about Olenna's actions with the hairnet, meaning he probably suggested it, and that the Tyrell's are involved.  Olenna doesn't carry it with her for fear of betrayal and discovery.  The Tyrells have no reason to want Tyrion dead; certainly not enough to go to the trouble of murdering him.  They have clear reason to want Jeffrey dead, both because of domestic violence and its ramifications (i.e., Loras), and the likelihood of Joffrey becoming a tyrant.

Jeffrey has bodyguards and is well protected; Tyrion is unprotected and takes no precautions.  Also, part of the plan is to get Sansa out.  But she is seated next to Tyrion, who is also her husband.  If he is choking, all eyes are on him, and her as well.  She is going nowhere.

I don't know Baelish's motives, but can guess.  A distraction to extricate Sansa, ingratiating himself with the Tyrells, gaining a hold over the Tyrells, or any or all of the above.

Oh, and we've been told more than once that the Strangler is administered dissolved in wine.  No other method has been given despite ample opportunity to do so (we even have one character who is learning about poisons).  So yes, the poison is in the wine.  Just tip off Margaery not to drink and let Joffrey go first.  We know he likes his wine.

Edited April 2 by Nevets

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

what does Olenna bring to the table?

She brings the deed itself .... while LF sits on The Merling King far away from any suspicion.

Also, isn't the whole point of the strangler poison that it makes it look as though someone is choking, even to the person being choked? So it was 'working as intended'.

Littlefinger gets the distance from the crime he needs. The Tyrells have a stooge in Sansa to take the fall, once the poison is found. Sansa escaping with the evidence was probably part of the scheme LF kept from Olenna, but since we aren't in her POV we can't know for sure how her side of the plan was meant to go down. If Joffrey hadn't pointed the finger at Tyrion, the Tyrells may have been put under the spotlight. Cersei hates Margaery only a little less than her brother, so they can consider themselves lucky.

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

it makes no sense for LF to want to kill Joffrey

As he wasn't going to do the deed himself, I suspect he may have had to compromise on this point. That's what happens when you show in with another faction. But he still gets to sow his seed of disruption regardless, which he says he thrives on, and he ends up with Sansa. 

Killing a known enemy ultimately puts the suspicion on LF: Tyrion and LF's beefing was possibly known to more than a few in King's Landing, whereas only Sansa knew that she had told the Tyrells of Joffrey's monstrous nature. Without her, there is nothing to tie the Tyrells to his murder. And as we know, LF has 'nothing to gain' from the king's death - unless we count foreknowledge of his death as important in itself. Well, Littelfinger is kind of like those 'insider traders' you hear about in the world of stock markets and finance. A little foreknowledge and leverage can be very valuable to someone who knows how to exploit it to the maximum.

[sifth]

Here's one I despise. That the series is really post apocalyptic. The Doom or the Long Night or whatever, led to humanity regressing to a middle ages type period. That all the magic we've seen is just "technology we don't understand". This theory made no sense to me and still doesn't. If you're looking for some type of logic, to explain the The Others, The Wall and dragons, then this is the wrong series for you. They're dark fantasy, clear as day.

Edited April 2 by sifth

[House Cambodia]

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

Here's one I despise. That the series is really post apocalyptic. That Doom or the Long Night or whatever, led to humanity regressing to a middle ages type period. That all the magic we've seen is just "technology we don't understand". This theory made no sense to me and still doesn't. If you're looking for some type of logic, to explain the The Others, The Wall and dragons, then this is the wrong series for you. They're dark fantasy, clear as day.

Well, you're covering two quite separate issues there. 'Post-apocalyptic' - yeah, that's daft. But the last part in in-story - it's the mainstream maesters' paradigm, a world without magic. Much of what popularly passes for 'magic' has logical, scientific explanations, but much doesn't. That key people are very slow to accept the reality of dragons and the Others until the evidence is right in their face, whilst the likes of Melissandra is too quick to see (or falsely create) magic where it isn't there, drives the story. That tension is very much part of the low-fantasy narrative.

[CamiloRP]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I trust Littlefinger as far as I can throw him.  But he knew about Olenna's actions with the hairnet

Did he? he only asked Sansa if someone touched her hair, and Sansa revealed Olenna did. Maybe someone else did too?

 

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Olenna doesn't carry it with her for fear of betrayal and discovery. 

If this is the case, she takes the poison from Sansa way before the poisoning. It's the same thing as carrying it herself. She doesn't need to tell anyone, just carry it in her pocket like she prosumably does after taking it from Sansa. Besides, if she just carried it herself, she didn't need to trust in Donto's ability to convince Sansa to carry the net. WHat if she handn't?

 

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The Tyrells have no reason to want Tyrion dead; certainly not enough to go to the trouble of murdering him.  They have clear reason to want Jeffrey dead, both because of domestic violence and its ramifications (i.e., Loras), and the likelihood of Joffrey becoming a tyrant.

I don't think the Tyrells were involved, as I said before, it makes no sense, what do they bring to the table? and what does LF bring to the table for them? How would they briach the subject while LF is trying to convince them to marry Margeary to Joff?

 

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Jeffrey has bodyguards and is well protected; Tyrion is unprotected and takes no precautions. 

Tyrion has clanmen and Bronn around (and the Big Dick Pod), besides, a direct attack on Tyrion would be a dumb idea, a really dumb idea. Also, someone tried to kill him during the blackwater, who? it doesn't seem like cersei was the culprit.

 

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Also, part of the plan is to get Sansa out.  But she is seated next to Tyrion, who is also her husband.  If he is choking, all eyes are on him, and her as well.  She is going nowhere.

Not if Tyrion is fighting with Joffrey over, lets say, a bunch of jousting dwarves.

 

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I don't know Baelish's motives, but can guess.  A distraction to extricate Sansa, ingratiating himself with the Tyrells, gaining a hold over the Tyrells, or any or all of the above.

He's got more motives to kill Tyrion. He needs a widowed Sansa, he needs to get rid of tyrion because of the dagger incident, he likely tried before in the blackwater, and murdering Tyrion also helps as a distraction to rescue Sansa.

 

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Oh, and we've been told more than once that the Strangler is administered dissolved in wine.  No other method has been given despite ample opportunity to do so (we even have one character who is learning about poisons). 

It can presumably be dissolved in any liquid, like lemon cream, or even saliva. It's a dumb idea to use a posion that simulates choaking in a subtance with which you can't choak.

 

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So yes, the poison is in the wine.  Just tip off Margaery not to drink and let Joffrey go first.  We know he likes his wine.

So, in addition to having to trust in a drunk fool, a little girl and a known liar (who was talking up the suposed victim), only to carry the poison and comit the crime yourself. In addition to having to be slick and fast so no one sees you putting the poison in the chalice, despite being an old woman, with presumably not very fast hands, she would also need to, covertly, let know Margeary and any other Tyrell not to drink from the chalise but only in the moment in which she put the poison?

What if Joff had offered a sip to Margeary and she refused, then Joff drank and died? wouldn't she be considered prime suspect?

Also, she pressumably puts the poison in the wine in a moment when everyone is watching Tyrion, Joff and the chalice, incredibly bold for an old woman with pressumably slow hands. What if anyone saw her? why involve a bunch of people and still do the did herself in an extremly risky fashion?

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

As he wasn't going to do the deed himself, I suspect he may have had to compromise on this point. That's what happens when you show in with another faction. But he still gets to sow his seed of disruption regardless, which he says he thrives on, and he ends up with Sansa. 

Killing a known enemy ultimately puts the suspicion on LF: Tyrion and LF's beefing was possibly known to more than a few in King's Landing, whereas only Sansa knew that she had told the Tyrells of Joffrey's monstrous nature. Without her, there is nothing to tie the Tyrells to his murder. And as we know, LF has 'nothing to gain' from the king's death - unless we count foreknowledge of his death as important in itself. Well, Littelfinger is kind of like those 'insider traders' you hear about in the world of stock markets and finance. A little foreknowledge and leverage can be very valuable to someone who knows how to exploit it to the maximum.

But that only works if you assume he teamed up with the Tyrells, so I ask again: what does he bring to the table? what do the Tyrells bring to the table? why involve all those people? why would the Tyrells trust a known liar that is talking up joffrey and works for him? and why would LF trust the Tyrells?

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

Here's one I despise. That the series is really post apocalyptic. The Doom or the Long Night or whatever, led to humanity regressing to a middle ages type period. That all the magic we've seen is just "technology we don't understand". This theory made no sense to me and still doesn't. If you're looking for some type of logic, to explain the The Others, The Wall and dragons, then this is the wrong series for you. They're dark fantasy, clear as day.

The series is quite literally post apocaliptic, but it being sci-fi... no, that'd be boring as hell.

[CamiloRP]

8 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

She brings the deed itself .... while LF sits on The Merling King far away from any suspicion.

LF has tons of agents, why couldn't one of them do it?

 

[Sandy Clegg]

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

It can presumably be dissolved in any liquid, like lemon cream, or even saliva. It's a dumb idea to use a posion that simulates choaking in a subtance with which you can't choak.

You're putting a hell of a lot of trust in that "presumably" there. It has no basis in the text, though.

Cressem is the only authority we have on how the poison works, and he states:

 In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe.

It turns wine purple, so what would it do to lemon cream, which is bright yellow? I think we have to stick with what's given to us in the books, as regards to the poison's method of distribution. Even if it did work in lemon cream, this is a big gamble to take when conventional wisdom suggests a much easier, tried and tested course. Plus, involving the lemon cream handler adds another blabbing mouth to the scheme, which I thought you disapproved of.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

The series is quite literally post apocaliptic, but it being sci-fi... no, that'd be boring as hell.

I've heard some say it takes place in our world in the distant future. Some apocalyptic event caused things to regress to the world we see in the series. I hate this theory and those who defend this theory try to use it to, explain why George's castles are so dam big and some in places that are almost impossible for a castle to be built, like the Eyrie.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

You're putting a hell of a lot of trust in that "presumably" there. It has no basis in the text, though.

Cressem is the only authority we have on how the poison works, and he states:

 In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe.

It turns wine purple, so what would it do to lemon cream, which is bright yellow? I think we have to stick with what's given to us in the books, as regards to the poison's method of distribution. Even if it did work in lemon cream, this is a big gamble to take when conventional wisdom suggests a much easier, tried and tested course. Plus, involving the lemon cream handler adds another blabbing mouth to the scheme, which I thought you disapproved of.

I don't know of anything that dissolves just in wine, in fact, saliva is corrosive, so if something is disolved in wine, it would be disolved in saliva, if not in your stomach, I see no reason to believe otherwise.

Besides, the "lemon cream handler" can be LF's agent, so the conspiracy would still be simpler: LF and his agent, rather than LF and the Tyrells.

[CamiloRP]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

I've heard some say it takes place in our world in the distant future. Some apocalyptic event caused things to regress to the world we see in the series. I hate this theory and those who defend this theory try to use it to, explain why George's castles are so dam big and some in places that are almost impossible for a castle to be built, like the Eyrie.

Yeah, I heard it. To be honest, I like bits of it (tho I hate the idea of Westeros being earth), but even tho you could consider it probable, it would still be an incredibly boring revelation and would add nothing to the plot or the themes of the story.

[Sandy Clegg]

19 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't know of anything that dissolves just in wine

More to the point, how many things do you know which do dissolve in lemon cream? Or in 'pie' which would need to very moist indeed to allow dissolving. It's a high intensity moment, so Olenna probably had little time to act. Cressen shows how the strangler can be plopped into a wine glass in less than a second ... and the job is done.

I'm not saying the pie idea is impossible, just that it would require a lot more planning, which has less support in the text. And it seems that Sansa's amethyst was used 'on the spot' - which would be very difficult unless it was wine (which Tyrion notes had a purple colouring). Nobody inspected the lemon cream, and if it turns up two books later that 'someone remembered the lemon cream having a purplish tinge' then that's not especially great writing on GRRM's part, imo.

[Craving Peaches]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:47 AM, sifth said:

I think the second Wall theory

Where exactly is this second wall supposed to be hidden anyway? Or is it destroyed or something?

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

More to the point, how many things do you know which do dissolve in lemon cream?

Lemon cream was just an off the cuff sugestion, saliva and stomach acid are the strongest bets.

 

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It's a high intensity moment, so Olenna probably had little time to act.

Precisely, why would a powerful noble lady, with likely weak and slow hands, do the deed herself? she is the one most likely to get caught.

 

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I'm not saying the pie idea is impossible, just that it would require a lot more planning, which has less support in the text.

Not at all, Littlefinger had been making plans with Dontos since the previous books, if I recall correctly, it was a thurroghly planned out plan. And briving a waiter is much simpler than the whole Tyrell weird ass conspiracy.

 

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Nobody inspected the lemon cream, and if it turns up two books later that 'someone remembered the lemon cream having a purplish tinge' then that's not especially great writing on GRRM's part, imo.

With this I agree, but the lemon cream was just an example, and it could be revealed in another way, or not be revealed at all.

 

 

Littlefinger is not to be trusted, so lets analyze LF's "confesion" to Sansa as if it was a fan theory. Lets say Petyr never tells Sansa what happened and, removing this "confesion", analyze what Petyr said as a fan theory..

Fan theory: Little Finger and the Tyrells work together to poison Joffrey.

I have little evidence for this theory but, we all know that Olenna grabbed Sansa's harinet, which had a stone missing, and the stones are revealed by Ptyr to be poison. So, did the Queen of Thornes removed the stone when fixing Sansa's net? It's the only suspect we have.

How did Petyr and Olenna plan this out? well, LF could've had some time alone with the QoT when he travelled to Highgarden to convince her son to wed Margeary to Joffrey. In this time together he could've revealed how cruel Joff was, after all, Olenna and Marge knew he was cruel and asked Sansa about that, it seems likely that information comes from Petyr. On the other hand Loras spent a long time in KL, the rumors can come from him, or from Renly, who was close to the Tyrells. I don't know how Petyr convinced the Tyrells to trust him tho, I mean, he was praising Joff in order to get the marriage, and the Tyrells have no reason to include him in the plan, but he obviously managed to convince them. Petyr can be very persuasive and Olenna is the only one who touched Sansa's hairnet.

So, the plan was for, before the party started, before they got in the throne room, Olenna to grab the stone from Sansa, and wait for a moment in which everyone was distracted (looking at Tyrion serving Joff the wine) to slip some poison in the wine without being seen. In the destraction Sansa would sneak away with Dontos.

Why did Petyr want to kill Joffrey? I don't know, maybe to confuse his enemies because he did something without reason. Tho this would require for his enemies to know he did it.

 

 

Now let's analyze the other theory under the same circumpstances: LF never "confesed" to Sansa:

 

Fan theory: Tyrion was the intended target in the purple wedding.

So, Littlefinger wants Tyrion dead. In AFFC Cersei thinks about how he offered to wed Sansa, and througout the story we see several instances in which he clearly is infatuated with her (touching her hair in the tourney of the hand, kissing her in the eary, etc). Sansa even thinks he looks at her with lust. But Sansa s married to Tyrion, so for her to marry LF, Tyrion needs to die first. Also Tyrion took a lot of LF's power away when he was hand, by replacing his men; Tyrion also knows about the dagger, which is a loose end; and someone tried to kill Tyrion in the Blackwater, I don't think this was Cersei, as she never thinks about that.

On the other hand, Littlefinger has no reason to want joffrey dead, Joffrey seems easy to manipulate, and tehre are a few hints he already did, as Janos Slynt (LFs man) knew Eddard was going to be executed. Ofcourse no one wanted Ned to die, except for Petyr, who wanted to start a war. Varys and Tyrion both think someone had a hand in Ned's execution and even as late as ADWD characters think about what a wrong move it was.

Also, the poison being in the chalice makes little sense: everyone was drinking from it, and it was even being emptied with no one drinking it, what if Margeary died? Or what if the poison was wasted? would the person (likely a servant) who placed the poison in the wine risk being caught again?

Finally, Joffrey ate Tyrion's pie, we all know that, and if the strangler was used, a poison ment to simulate a choaking and remove concerns of murder, a pie seems like a more logical place to put the poison in, instead of a wine, something you can't choak on.

 

 

Which theory do you found more believable?

Also, it's fine if you don't agree with this theory, I'm not one hundred percent convinced by it (tho I think it orders of magnitud more likely than the other one), but I find it weird how everyone acts like it's a closed case when George made it purposely confusing, if George didn't mean for us to think about this, why did he make Joff et Tyrion's pie while drinking the wine? why did he make Tyrion dunk the wine? wouldn't it be more incriminating for a maester to test the wine and find trace amounts of the strangler on it? I don't think this last few bits prove Tyrion was the target, but they definitely prove George wanted us to consider the possibility, that why I find it weird when people act like what LF says is inquestionably true.

 

 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where exactly is this second wall supposed to be hidden anyway? Or is it destroyed or something?

Some believe it was destroyed by the Horn of Joramun. Listen, I think this theory is BS, but I do find it strange that people believe the Wall will be destroyed if it is blown, without any proof.

There's also the Night's Watch vow, saying they are the "watchers on the walls". Again, all this seems pretty weak, in trying to support the theory.

Edited April 3 by sifth