Canon Claude Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 It really seems to me that Kingsguard serving for life is a serious problem in their makeup. I don't care how fit or smart or alert someone might be in their 20s, that isn't going to last forever. And no, Barristan is an exception not a rule. We see for ourselves how men like Trant and Blount can age badly. What's the use of keeping guys like that in your kingsguard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Yeah, this makes little sense, because the purpose is to defend the king. Even if they all start young, give or take a few decades and the King will be relying on Ormund the Old, Florian the Feeble, Waymar the Weary, Dareon the Demented, Arthur the Arthritic, Cerrick Cataract and Harrold of the Hanging Haemorrhoids as his primary line of defense. Unless they get killed off at different times. It would make more sense if there was a turnover when a new King came to the throne, but that doesn't happen either. The only purpose I can think of that makes sense with the current setup is that it is actually to punish families by robbing them of good heirs like Aerys did with Tywin, but that conflicts with how most people in universe view the Kingsguard, since they see it as honourable, prestigious etc. Julia H. and Aldarion 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I mean severing for life is dumb in just about every field, be it Kingsguard, Nights Watch or Maester. There's just no point in having people sever until they become useless and beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 The purpose - in all the institutions where life service is expected - is presumably to foster loyalty to the institution itself (or those whom it serves). If there is the possibility of a return to normal life once your term of service is over, then you'll always have one eye on the future (or the past), and that leaves you open to corruption. If you can hold lands and titles, father children, etc. then there will always be those trying to use those as incentives for you to prioritise your own interests above that of the king/Watch/whatever. "Do this for me and I'll set you up with a better castle when you retire", etc. And it also potentially leaves your family's hooks in you because if all else fails you can just go back to them when your term is up. In principle, once the KG take office, they forsake all personal advancement except in the direct service of the king, and they can only be released from his service on death. There's nothing for anyone else to offer them, so they're invulnerable to corruption and remain loyal to the king. Of course it doesn't always work like that, because nothing and nobody is perfect, but it's the idea behind it. maesternewton, Vante and The hairy bear 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Quote “Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked. Jon shrugged. “No.” ..... “So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” (Game 60) Reduced to one sentence, it sounds rather harsh; but I'm sure you all remember the rest of the conversation, where Aemon explains in more detail. The lifetime vow is done for the same reason: to encourage loyalty and reduce the chance of any temptation to stray. Besides, what is the life expectancy of a Kingsguard? Aside from the risks of their job, they live in a medieval world with medieval levels of health care, food and water quality, etc. Ones as old as Barristan are probably quite rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I think it's important to take into account that the kingsguard are not the only people protecting the king. The Red Keep will always be full of guards, and have no doubt that when the king travels outside the keep, he brings more than seven bodyguards in his entourage. Normally, the kingsguard would be a mix of young fighters in his prime and old seasoned warriors. There will always be those younger members who can carry out the more demanding duties with the help of as many household guards as they need. 13 hours ago, Canon Claude said: What's the use of keeping guys like that in your kingsguard? Alester Florent has already laid out one: loyalty. People will serve much more faithfully if it's a life post. Other reasons would be prestige (even if they are no longer top fighters, having recognizable names around you give you a higher standing) or privacy (the kingsguard are privy to most of the king's secrets. You don't want those guys going back to their families with that information) Willam Stark, Julia H. and maesternewton 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyLittlePsycho Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Seems strange, yeah. Usually nowadays and also historically, like the Roman Legionnaires, people in a dangerous profession would be rewarded with early retirement. 20-30 years duty compared to a civilian worker with 40-50 years. And for a good reason, as people in their 40s, or worse 50,60+ usually won´t be able to do their job properly anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingStoneheart Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I think perhaps something in place where what happened to Barristan is normalised would work. The king has the power to relieve them of their duty should they become unfit - I.e when Jaime loses a hand, he should be replaced with someone up to the task. If this was normalised from the start, there would be less “dishonour” to it and these people should remain loyal because they don’t know when their dismissal is coming. As PrettyLittlePhysco said above, think of it more as early retirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 13 hours ago, KingStoneheart said: I think perhaps something in place where what happened to Barristan is normalised would work. The king has the power to relieve them of their duty should they become unfit - I.e when Jaime loses a hand, he should be replaced with someone up to the task. If this was normalised from the start, there would be less “dishonour” to it and these people should remain loyal because they don’t know when their dismissal is coming. As PrettyLittlePhysco said above, think of it more as early retirement Of course, the irony there is that Jaime is arguably a much more effective, certainly a more honourable and dedicated member of the Kingsguard, since his injury than he was in the preceding 15 years when he was at peak combat effectiveness. Indeed, Jaime's reputation in part survives his maiming: we know that he's useless with a sword now that he's lost his dominant hand because we see inside his head and see him in the immediate aftermath of the injury, but almost nobody else does (basically Brienne, Ilyn Payne and perhaps Addam Marbrand). Men still seem reluctant to face the Kingslayer, even one-handed, and people still seem to place some reliance on him as a formidable combatant (see the requests for him to fight the Hound, Cersei wanting him back to fight for her in a trial by combat). Sure, in a duel, Jaime may actually be all but useless, but actual combat skill is probably less important in a KG than reputation, because assassins miss 100% of the chances they don't dare to take. And Barristan was arguably still the most effective member of the Kingsguard at the time he was fired (given that Jaime's dedication to the role, even under Joffrey, was suspect). KingStoneheart and Julia H. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Re the OP question, I think its so they are entirely dedicated to the job in the way priests and nuns are or the soldiers of the nights watch. No family to put first, etc, no wealth to defend. If not, they could see their job as a investment in later profit and position. Especially if they came from reasonably powerful houses, they could look forward to marrying late, taking an active role in promoting their houses, and they'd have the Kings secrets from all those years of guarding him. Julia H. and Alester Florent 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 In this history books, has a KG ever received a physical disability, like Jamie? I find it strange, that a king would want a disabled person to defend them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fencer Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/1/2024 at 3:27 AM, The hairy bear said: Normally, the kingsguard would be a mix of young fighters in his prime and old seasoned warriors. There will always be those younger members who can carry out the more demanding duties with the help of as many household guards as they need. The value of a seasoned warrior should not be undervalued in this conversation. Experience matters, a lot. In a crisis situation, most individuals to not "rise to the occasion", but instead sink to the level of their training and experience. Those with experience often far exceed the younger/stronger with their ability to assess, decide and react to a situation; the ability to get inside an opponent's decision loop provides a distinct advantage. As that sage and eminent philosopher said: Quote Bane: You fight like a younger man, with nothing held back. Admirable but mistaken. Further, I would suspect that in a larger conflict the more experienced kingsguard would be expected--and would be much more valuable--in a leadership, planning and strategy role far before they were called on to physically defend the king. The hairy bear, Craving Peaches and Alester Florent 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 There is a ceremonial side to the role. Age lends prestige rather than hurts in this capacity. A lot of the men likely die before reaching a ripe age. The Kingsguardship is an Order requiring total commitment. They serve until nothing of life remains. It is hard to accept given the modern relationship between employee and employer but it was a different time in a distant world. The Khal’s blood riders do the same. Dany’s bloodriders serve and protect her but to a level her husband never enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 1/31/2024 at 10:30 PM, Craving Peaches said: Even if they all start young, give or take a few decades and the King will be relying on Ormund the Old, Florian the Feeble, Waymar the Weary, Dareon the Demented, Arthur the Arthritic, Cerrick Cataract and Harrold of the Hanging Haemorrhoids as his primary line of defense. Arthur the Arthritic will be using Dawn, though. Which is always a plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Beware old men in a profession where the merely good die young Craving Peaches, Aldarion and Fencer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) On 2/5/2024 at 6:40 AM, Alden Rothack said: Beware old men in a profession where the merely good die young Like Borros Blount? Edited February 7 by James Steller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 16 hours ago, James Steller said: Like Borros Blount? Hes still alive isn't he Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 20 hours ago, James Steller said: Like Borros Blount? Is he old, or just stupid and over weight? I still wonder how he got to become a Kingsguard, since he's done nothing remotely badass in the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 21 hours ago, sifth said: Is he old, or just stupid and over weight? I still wonder how he got to become a Kingsguard, since he's done nothing remotely badass in the series. cersei believes him entirely suitable for her purposes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 23 hours ago, sifth said: Is he old, or just stupid and over weight? I still wonder how he got to become a Kingsguard, since he's done nothing remotely badass in the series. He's in his 40s. Jaime considers him an adequate fighter. Robett's Kingsguard is of pretty low quality by the standards of KGs, mind, so I don't know how much reliance we can place on it or its members as a representative sample. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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