Melifeather Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 The wedding chalice symbolically represents the game of thrones. It has seven sides that might even represent the Andal Faith of Seven, with the seven major houses: Lannister (ruby lion), Tyrell (emerald rose), Baratheon (onyx stag), Tully (silver trout), Arryn (blue jade falcon), Martell (opal sun), and Stark (pearl direwolf). They're all playing games in order to gain power and it cannot look deliberate. The best game players, by all appearances, look innocent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 @Melifeather I agree on a lot of things here, such as the importance of timing. I also agree that the chalice was meant to provoke and distract. But the cup Melisandre drank from was not exceptionally ornate or deep. I really don't think that GRRM made two scenarios with deliberate similarities, but that require different explanations. To me an antidote is more convincing because it applies potentially to both scenarios, not just the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 19 minutes ago, Hippocras said: @Melifeather I agree on a lot of things here, such as the importance of timing. I also agree that the chalice was meant to provoke and distract. But the cup Melisandre drank from was not exceptionally ornate or deep. I really don't think that GRRM made two scenarios with deliberate similarities, but that require different explanations. To me an antidote is more convincing because it applies potentially to both scenarios, not just the one. GRRM's editor Anne Groell once said: Quote ...it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective. I do believe that Cressen's attempted poisoning of Melisandre is one of GRRM's three-fold revelation strategies. I guess technically you could say this is a murder-suicide since surely Cressen understood he would die when he drank the rest of the wine. He was just hoping Melisandre died too. Joffrey's poisoning took out the intended target and concealed the killer. It was a successful murder and the killer went free which suggests that there was a third murder attempt by poison, that ends with the death of the killer...and there is such an account: Oberyn Martell. Oberyn poisoned his lance prior to fighting Ser Gregor Clegane - its what nearly killed Gregor and placed him into the "healing" hands of Qyburn who turned him into Ser Robert Strong. Oberyn, of course, was killed when Ser Gregor crushed his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) I should add that the three-fold strategy unfolded in this order: The first, subtle - Cressen tried to poison Melisandre. (A Clash of Kings, Prologue) The killer is killed. The second, blatant - Lady Olenna poisons Joffrey. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 60) The killer (via a proxy) kills their intended target. The third, spelling it out - Oberyn poisoned Ser Gregor. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 70) The killer ends up killed, but still manages to poison their target. Sorry for all the edits...just small corrections in grammar and one book! Edited February 20 by Melifeather Hippocras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 3 hours ago, Melifeather said: Sorry for all the edits...just small corrections in grammar and one book! And I thought grammar and punctuation were optional. Melifeather 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 13 hours ago, Melifeather said: I should add that the three-fold strategy unfolded in this order: The first, subtle - Cressen tried to poison Melisandre. (A Clash of Kings, Prologue) The killer is killed. The second, blatant - Lady Olenna poisons Joffrey. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 60) The killer (via a proxy) kills their intended target. The third, spelling it out - Oberyn poisoned Ser Gregor. (A Storm of Swords, chapter 70) The killer ends up killed, but still manages to poison their target. Sorry for all the edits...just small corrections in grammar and one book! Oberyn’s use of poison was a different kind, so the third step might actually be still to come. I would not be against a mass strangler murder (in the story, not real life, where i am always against mass murder) in one particular House… In terms of the story however, it might make most sense for Cersei to be the next one to use the Strangler. She has a history of almost using poison when things get dire, and she has a way of taking things used against her and learning from them. So maybe we should fear for the Tyrells or the Faith Millitant rather than the Freys. Edited February 21 by Hippocras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 6 hours ago, Hippocras said: Oberyn’s use of poison was a different kind, so the third step might actually be still to come. I would not be against a mass strangler murder (in the story, not real life, where i am always against mass murder) in one particular House… In terms of the story however, it might make most sense for Cersei to be the next one to use the Strangler. She has a history of almost using poison when things get dire, and she has a way of taking things used against her and learning from them. So maybe we should fear for the Tyrells or the Faith Millitant rather than the Freys. This too bothered me all evening. I'd like to retract my post for now. Oberyn used venom. Then I thought the third was Jon Arryn, but Lyssa used Tears of Lys on him. GRRM does utilize a three-fold strategy, but I think I used an incomplete example. This doesn't change my thoughts that Melisandre's shared cup with Cressen was intended to be similar to Joffrey's poisoning though. Like you say, perhaps there will be a third one yet to come. Hippocras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 7 hours ago, Melifeather said: This too bothered me all evening. I'd like to retract my post for now. Oberyn used venom. Then I thought the third was Jon Arryn, but Lyssa used Tears of Lys on him. GRRM does utilize a three-fold strategy, but I think I used an incomplete example. This doesn't change my thoughts that Melisandre's shared cup with Cressen was intended to be similar to Joffrey's poisoning though. Like you say, perhaps there will be a third one yet to come. Could it be Tywin? Doesn't really fit in that GRRM doesn't spell it out for us but I've seen quite a few theories suggesting Tywin was poisoned prior to Tyrion cross bowing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Could it be Tywin? Doesn't really fit in that GRRM doesn't spell it out for us but I've seen quite a few theories suggesting Tywin was poisoned prior to Tyrion cross bowing him. I had read something too...something that made him constipated and that is why he was sitting so long on the toilet in the first place. I'm assuming the gut shot is why Tywin smelled so bad and the large amount of stool in his colon. Lyanna<3Rhaegar and Prince of the North 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Could it be Tywin? Doesn't really fit in that GRRM doesn't spell it out for us but I've seen quite a few theories suggesting Tywin was poisoned prior to Tyrion cross bowing him. I really think we can't look at every instance of ANY poison being used and see it as some sort of pattern. If there is a set of 3, it is a set of 3 uses of the strangler at public feasts. Tywin might have been poisoned. Or not. But if he was it was not with The Strangler. My personal take on Tywin's stink is that it was meant to be symbolic. A bit of a playful way for GRRM to state that this is a man who left a stinking and foul legacy. Some saw his ruthlessness as necessary evil, but really it was all built on a big load of shit and lies and tyranny. LongRider and Melifeather 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I don't know if its supposed to be a tradition to share goblets when toasting or for a bride and groom to share one at their wedding feast, but there does seem to be something "blatant" and "spelled out" with regards to having a three-foot tall golden wedding chalice with seven bejeweled sides and large handles on either side. The description sounds like a championship trophy! It's an attention grabber. It screams off the page to pay attention to the huge-ass chalice! Lyanna<3Rhaegar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Browndodd Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 8 hours ago, Melifeather said: I don't know if its supposed to be a tradition to share goblets when toasting or for a bride and groom to share one at their wedding feast, but there does seem to be something "blatant" and "spelled out" with regards to having a three-foot tall golden wedding chalice with seven bejeweled sides and large handles on either side. The description sounds like a championship trophy! It's an attention grabber. It screams off the page to pay attention to the huge-ass chalice! ...and Joff drinks the best part of it in one go. Given that he was properly blootered already, that would surely have been enough to put him on the floor, regardless of whether or not he had been poisoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 10 hours ago, Melifeather said: I don't know if its supposed to be a tradition to share goblets when toasting or for a bride and groom to share one at their wedding feast, but there does seem to be something "blatant" and "spelled out" with regards to having a three-foot tall golden wedding chalice with seven bejeweled sides and large handles on either side. The description sounds like a championship trophy! It's an attention grabber. It screams off the page to pay attention to the huge-ass chalice! I thought its just sposed to be those vulgar upstart Tyrells (they started up centuries ago when a steward became a master but that's still how they are painted) showing off, can't give a cheap present after all, and celebrating that they are now going to be part of a new royal dynasty (once Margaery has a child). I did at one point wonder if it had a secret little well in its inner wall so that someone could release poison inside by pushing a certain jewel of fiddling with a handle or something, but its not feasible as there's a chance some smart person might decide to examine it extremely carefully and also you have to have someone make it for you, and that's too big a risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 13 hours ago, Castellan said: I thought its just sposed to be those vulgar upstart Tyrells (they started up centuries ago when a steward became a master but that's still how they are painted) showing off, can't give a cheap present after all, and celebrating that they are now going to be part of a new royal dynasty (once Margaery has a child). I did at one point wonder if it had a secret little well in its inner wall so that someone could release poison inside by pushing a certain jewel of fiddling with a handle or something, but its not feasible as there's a chance some smart person might decide to examine it extremely carefully and also you have to have someone make it for you, and that's too big a risk. That'd be cool though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) On 2/22/2024 at 9:26 AM, Melifeather said: I had read something too...something that made him constipated and that is why he was sitting so long on the toilet in the first place. I'm assuming the gut shot is why Tywin smelled so bad and the large amount of stool in his colon. I thought it was accepted that he'd been poisoned - there is mention in the text of such a poison, that closes the bowels. Oberyn is in KL for revenge (despite his silly brother's instructions). Oberyn was scandalous even in Dorne because he didn't fight fair duels - he poisoned his spear so if he lost, his enemy died anyway. He has done this to Gregor and he made sure Tywin dies too. It would be easy for him - slip it into a goblet, a la Olenna. The only thing is that after Tyrion enters the room and sees Shae there and strangles her, the text goes something like 'he found his father where he knew he would be - in the privy." This could be interpreted as the only place that he could be, since he is not in the main room. Or it could be argued that Tyrion must have been the one who poisoned him, an we know Tyrion has a stock of poison. But I think Tyrion has deduced that if Oberyn made sure of Gregor's death he would also make sure of Tywin's. I have to admit there is a bit of a flaw in my argument there as how would he know its a poison that would drive him to the toilet? Unless Oberyn gave him an actual hint, of course. Edited February 28 by Castellan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 4 hours ago, Castellan said: I thought it was accepted that he'd been poisoned - there is mention in the text of such a poison, that closes the bowels. Oberyn is in KL for revenge (despite his silly brother's instructions). Oberyn was scandalous even in Dorne because he didn't fight fair duels - he poisoned his spear so if he lost, his enemy died anyway. He has done this to Gregor and he made sure Tywin dies too. It would be easy for him - slip it into a goblet, a la Olenna. The only thing is that after Tyrion enters the room and sees Shae there and strangles her, the text goes something like 'he found his father where he knew he would be - in the privy." This could be interpreted as the only place that he could be, since he is not in the main room. Or it could be argued that Tyrion must have been the one who poisoned him, an we know Tyrion has a stock of poison. But I think Tyrion has deduced that if Oberyn made sure of Gregor's death he would also make sure of Tywin's. I have to admit there is a bit of a flaw in my argument there as how would he know its a poison that would drive him to the toilet? Unless Oberyn gave him an actual hint, of course. Here it is: Quote A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI Waddling to the door, he listened a moment, then eased it open slowly. A lamp burned in a stone niche, casting wan yellow light over the empty hallway. Only the flame was moving. Tyrion slid out, holding the crossbow down against his leg. He found his father where he knew he'd find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips. At the sound of steps, Lord Tywin raised his eyes. That is a curious line. It does sound like it suggests Tyrion knew something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 27 minutes ago, Melifeather said: That is a curious line. It does sound like it suggests Tyrion knew something. perhaps its one of those 'first hints' in the three fold revelation. LongRider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Given the POV structure, how would we find out if Tywin was poisoned? Oberyn is dead, Tywin is also dead, and buried. Plus, it would effectively absolve Tyrion of responsibility for his father's death, and that's not the GRRM way. He may have had health issues, plus if he isn't in bed or visible in the room, the privy is all that's left. Prince of the North and Evolett 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) On 3/1/2024 at 8:52 PM, Nevets said: Given the POV structure, how would we find out if Tywin was poisoned? Oberyn is dead, Tywin is also dead, and buried. Plus, it would effectively absolve Tyrion of responsibility for his father's death, and that's not the GRRM way. He may have had health issues, plus if he isn't in bed or visible in the room, the privy is all that's left. Quote A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX Then they brought forth Grand Maester Pycelle, leaning heavily on a twisted cane and shaking as he walked, a few white hairs sprouting from his long chicken's neck. He had grown too frail to stand, so the judges permitted a chair to be brought in for him, and a table as well. On the table were laid a number of small jars. Pycelle was pleased to put a name to each. "Greycap," he said in a quavery voice, "from the toadstool. Nightshade, sweetsleep, demon's dance. This is blindeye. Widow's blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man's bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned." Edited March 3 by Melifeather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 12 hours ago, Melifeather said: The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned." That's interesting, but then what? Did Tyrion poison Tywin at the wedding while Sansa poisoned Joffery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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