Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

 

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I don’t mind the Japanese superiority complex here. I find the common westerner comes into oriental or native culture and becomes the hero to be a bit overdone and unrealistic. Why would a foreigner get such a position of power? These stories always assume the person is some exceptional individual better than the natives, whether that is Sully in Avatar or Cruise in Samurai or Blackthorne in the novels. Why would a lord of Toronagas status be smitten with a random foreigner.

So I do like that Toronaga was more clear here in his manipulation of people around him. Yes that comes at a loss of Johns heroness but it feels real. What I still feel was missing was the attachment between Mariko and John. Episode nine tried to rekindle it but it had been snuffed out too much with the story of episodes 5-7.

 

Isn't Blackthorne based on William Adams who did achieve a position of high status in Tokuguawa Ieyasu's court? But indeed Tokugawa used Adams' skills for his benefit, much like Torunaga has done with Blackthorne.

Edited April 23 by Corvinus85

[Arakasi]

There is a difference between being valued highly and promoted to some level of significance and being a trusted friend/buddy. The first makes much more sense to me than the latter and I like how the show was more explicit in Toronagas motivations here. John was valuable and was given a position of trust but it didn’t break the lord/vassal relationship.

[Relic]

Well, that was great. 

[Ser Not Appearing]

I've never read the books and I've enjoyed the show but ...

Spoiler

My take on Blackthorne is he's a complete sideshow, bumbles around in uninteresting ways and is basically useless. Maybe his magical, unexplained cannon accuracy gets used but otherwise he may as well not exist except to serve as a contrast to Japanese sensibilities as it relates to the value of life, honor and independence.

 

[Relic]

Just now, Ser Not Appearing said:

I've never read the books and I've enjoyed the show but ...

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My take on Blackthorne is he's a complete sideshow, bumbles around in uninteresting ways and is basically useless. Maybe his magical, unexplained cannon accuracy gets used but otherwise he may as well not exist except to serve as a contrast to Japanese sensibilities as it relates to the value of life, honor and independence.

 

Spoiler

I really enjoyed his arc. Is he essential to the plot of the show? Not really, because you're right, he doesnt really DO much. But his journey is fascinating, imho. 

 

[Werthead]

Something that was a bit weird:

Spoiler

Blackthorne dying an old man in bed back in England, with grandchildren around. Was that a fantasy? The real William Adams died in Japan. He had two children with a Japanese wife.

 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Weird that examples used to show Japanese barbarism in that article are literal Japanese versions of Macbeth and King Lear respectively. Did the authour not... know that somehow?

Of course the author knows.  She was making a different point -- that despite all of the praised, including by yrs truly, the centering of Japanese figures not European ones, this show is still centering a European fantasy Japan, particularly of that period.

[Zorral]

33 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Something that was a bit weird:

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Blackthorne dying an old man in bed back in England, with grandchildren around. Was that a fantasy? The real William Adams died in Japan. He had two children with a Japanese wife.

 

Ya, that what the reviewers say.*  But for me, even if that was what it was supposed to be, it was a hard fail, which is not how they would have wanted to their viewers to see it.  

 

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For me it made no sense even as a death bed fantasy, as we know how committed by then, and even before, Blackthorne was to Japan -- his Japan, just like Jake Adelstein.

* 

Spoiler

By now too, it's so clear how invested the reviewers and recappers were in the show's quality, so I'm not sure I'm buying their interpretation of this, though they may info provided to them by the show that I don't.

 

[Corvinus85]

Did I want a battle or one more fight sequence? Sure. But this was a strong finale nonetheless. 

I liked the way Toranaga finally revealed his plan. I don't know if the book ever mentioned the game of Go, but the way events unfolded for Toranaga reminded me of a way of playing Go where you can allow your opponent to take your pieces all the while you position the rest in a way that you gain the positional advantage on the board until it becomes clear you've won without needing to continue to trade pieces.

Spoiler

Toranaga correcting Yabushige about not controlling the wind but merely studying confirms that he is a man who takes advantage of whatever situation he's in. He couldn't have planned for the earthquake or his son's stupid death, but he remade his plans every time, maneuvering for position as best as possible while allowing for the sacrifice of various pieces.

 

[Ser Not Appearing]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

Something that was a bit weird:

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Blackthorne dying an old man in bed back in England, with grandchildren around. Was that a fantasy? The real William Adams died in Japan. He had two children with a Japanese wife.

 

Yeah, I was confused by that. Especially based on something said in the episode.

[Ran]

On Blackthorne:

Spoiler

It's a dream, an imagined future where he's returned to great wealth and has grandchildren. How do we know it's a dream? He's holding Mariko's rosary in the dream, but in fact he casts it away into the sea at the end of the show, not long after we learn that Toranaga intends to never let him return to England.

 

[Relic]

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

Something that was a bit weird:

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Blackthorne dying an old man in bed back in England, with grandchildren around. Was that a fantasy? The real William Adams died in Japan. He had two children with a Japanese wife.

 

Spoiler

They definitely explain it. When he's about to kill himself he sees that future slipping away, and as Ran already mentioned above, the rosary is another dead giveaway. 

 

[Mexal]

I thought they handled Toranaga's internal dialogue at the end of the book quite well. Very satisfying adaptation.

[Relic]

I feel dumb for not getting this earlier, but A Dream Within a Dream, indeed.

[Arakasi]

Or maybe the whole show was a dream and just an imagining of an old guy who lived and died in England and bought a cool sword from some trader coming back from Japan.  

Edit: It would explain why all the names and events were non historical.

Edit2: what was that about the sword being chipped I don’t recall the scene that referenced.

Edited April 24 by Arakasi

[Zorral]

There was one bit this viewer's pov appreciated. That was at the end, in, as we have already been informed, Blackthorne's first to fail endeavor to rebuild a ship for seafaring.  Buntaro's appearance to throw himself into this failed endeavor along with Blackthorne. Both of them came back from the dead.  Both of them failed to keep Mariko from what she wanted, she escaped both of their versions of what they thought was what she should do, leaving them to fail together in this too. Both Ha!

However, I really missed Blackthorne's decision, and then mental preparation to commit Seppuku, and the aftermath of being stopped right at the moment, for several days afterword, and then in one way or another for what would be the rest of his life.   This, more than anything else in the novel -- and particularly missing in this television adaptation -- allowed Blackthorne to enter "Japaneseness.'  That was the powerful bit of Clavell's fiction, that never left my recollection of the readings.

Edited April 24 by Zorral

[Zorral]

Further, it seemed to this viewer the scene in which Toranaga sets sets free his falcon is a paradigm that setting Mariko to do what the army cannot, which she did, at the cost of her own life.  He earlier in the series called her his falcon at one point while Blackthorne and Yabu are goshawks.

However, Toranaga says, as the falcon flies, "Bear many daughters."  Mariko has no daughters, no children, and never shall.  So, what are we to think of this?

Edited April 24 by Zorral

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Further, it seemed to this viewer the scene in which Toranaga sets sets free his falcon is a paradigm that setting Mariko to do what the army cannot, which she did, at the cost of her own life.  He earlier in the series called her his falcon at one point while Blackthorne and Yabu are goshawks.

However, Toranaga says, as the falcon flies, "Bear many daughters."  Mariko has no daughters, no children, and never shall.  So, what are we to think of this?

Mariko has a son.

But my take on the falcon release scene is that Toranaga has metaphorically freed Mariko of any obligations and service. The falcon is now free to live its life normally, no longer on the arm of the puppet master.

[Zorral]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Mariko has a son.

But my take on the falcon release scene is that Toranaga has metaphorically freed Mariko of any obligations and service. The falcon is now free to live its life normally, no longer on the arm of the puppet master.

That's what I said.  But she's already dead, when he does this. She has no daughters.

I didn't know she had a son, so thank you for that information.  But, we never saw him.  What is he doing?  Torananga doesn't seem to know either, or give a damn.  He has many sons though, which is mentioned by more figures than himself.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But, we never saw him. 

Yes we did. Buntaro yells at him and pushes him away when he's asking Mariko about when they'll be back or some such, and then more recently in the 8th or 9th episode where he tries to dissuade her from... was it her suicide? By saying how he won't honor her or some such.