Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

I think that's due to all the racism he did, though. 

The idea that we, modern people, should adopt the standards of historical people, standards we don't share, to make moral judgements is pretty weird to me, particularly in fiction. Toranaga never existed. 'His time' was never! He's a character invented by a modern Western writer for modern Western audiences. Modern Western standards are surely the appropriate ones to apply. 

He’s based on a real person , on a real culture, during a very real period in history. Your argument would be more valid for Asoiaf or LOTR which is pure fantasy.

[mormont]

No, not really.

The point about fiction is that it isn't history: that's why it's Toranaga and not Tokugawa, so Clavell could tell a story, as a modern author, for a modern audience, without being bound by the history. We tell such stories, even if they are based on history - heck, even if they are history - for modern purposes: to make comparisons to modern society and reflect and learn from those. Trying to think like a historical Japanese noble might be instructive for a modern reader as a thought exercise, but it's not the moral standard a modern reader should adopt. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Having watched the finale finally...the argument that the streaming method of limiting a series run was more apparent here than even earlier.  Was there not enough book to get three more hours out of this show to let things simmer and come out more naturally? Rather than what seemed, to me, a little half-hearted and rushed? 

Otherwise...I mean, we're not talking GoT endings here...it was still a triumph of a show. It's sad it can't go on.

[Rippounet]

Really enjoyed it, but it subverted my expectations until the very end.

Though I believe... That's the point. I haven't read the book, but I think what the show tried to do is play with the viewer's expectations to teach us about Japanese culture and philosophy.
From the start you expect it to be the story of how this European guy will help a Japanese lord become Shôgun. And of course, you expect him to look down on the Japanese at first, before realizing that the lord is super smart, noble, and honorable, and his followers are not just honorable, but also relatable and fun. And of course you expect him to fall in love with his beautiful interpreter, and for him to teach her how to live and love life again, as well as rescuing her from her brute of a husband. And at the end, he would become the Shôgun's right-hand man, a lord himself, and have a family with Mariko.
It's the story I dreaded to see tbh (à-la Last Samurai), but thankfully the show systematically goes against such eurocentric tropes.
As the story progresses, it pretty much subverts our expectations at every turn. Toranaga's tricks are not based on brilliance, but calloussness. Yabushige is kinda fun, but he's also a coward. Mariko's husband is not a brute, but is actually rather noble - and deeply in love with her. Blackthorne doesn't teach Mariko to love life again, and she chooses duty. And of course, Blackthorne doesn't help Toranaga at all ; instead he's just a funny pawn whose contribution is negligible.
And even at the end, when you expect to at least get a grand battle and/or Toranaga take his title, nope, the show doesn't go there. And the big reveal (that Ishido will be betrayed) is not even well explained (I had to come here for a satisfying explanation ). Even the ship ends up a wreck, and Toranaga says if it is rebuilt he'll probably destroy it again.

And I could be wrong, but I think this ending seeks to drive the point home, that this show was not about its plot. It wasn't about Blackthorne helping Toranaga become Shôgun, it wasn't about his story with Mariko, and it wasn't even about Toranaga becoming Shôgun. The show was really about Japanese culture, about discovering it through the eyes of a 17th century explorer, never understanding everything that goes on, never completely understanding it and being in control of things: you could live for decades with the Japanese, and they would still surprise you in every episode of the exchange.
In the end it feels like each episode was about learning lessons about Japanese culture (politics, love, superstition, the place of women... etc) and its outlook on life, and that all the communication and translation problems were there to tell us how difficult it is to truly learn or be Japanese. And the final episode was about telling us that Blackthorne was always a mere pawn, that the plot didn't really matter, and that behind the honor and the rituals, Toranaga is just "like all of us," after power and prestige. The honor and rituals don't serve a purpose, they are merely about the aesthetics of mortality: you live, you die, so might as well make it beautiful, while never forgetting that it is all pointless in the end.

Imho, either the show attempted something like this, or it really messed up its finale.
 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

the show attempted something like this

Yes it did.  I previously explained that the novel did that -- but very young me who knew nothing about Japan -- or much of anything else at the time except horses -- had to re-read the novel 2 - 3 times before I got that.  The difference between the novel and the series is that a great deal dealing with the Europeans was deleted, for many reasons, including to make the point far more clear for a first watcher who never read the novel, much less re-read it in more mature years.  It subverted every trope of adventure in exotic land historical fiction of English and USA novels.  Just as Japan just shut the thing down for a good long time to keep out those who would be subverting the aspects of Japanese culture and autonomy if let to run rampant.  They'd already seen what the Jesuits could do. 

Nobody said that the guy who succeeded was going to be or needed to be good.  That too subverts even the foundational fiction forms of European fiction, at least anyway, starting with the Romances.  El Cid is a great leader, a good man, a godly man, filled with honor.  The man who became Shogun didn't need to worry his head or morality about that, anymore than Caesar did.

But it was rather rushed, and too many connecting lines were absent to do it in an effective narrative.  Thank goodness the show could fall back on aesthetics of vision to keep people going.

Edited May 4 by Zorral

[Nictarion]

Sounds like we’re probably getting another season. 

https://deadline.com/2024/05/hiroyuki-sanada-deal-shogun-renewed-season-2-fx-emmys-drama-1235911076/

Edited May 10 by Nictarion

[Mexal]

12 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Sounds like we’re probably getting another season. 

https://deadline.com/2024/05/hiroyuki-sanada-deal-shogun-renewed-season-2-fx-emmys-drama-1235911076/

I don't know what the story will be but I'm super happy to be back in Japan.

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

I don't know what the story will be but I'm super happy to be back in Japan.

Toronaga might not be Tokugawa Ieyasu but he basically is. So a fictionalised version of him eventually becoming Shogun I’d guess.

Edited May 10 by ljkeane

[Arakasi]

Maybe wraps up with the fall of Osaka and the ending of Hideyoshi’s line?

[Corvinus85]

6 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Maybe wraps up with the fall of Osaka and the ending of Hideyoshi’s line?

Or go another generation and see the conflict expulsion of the Westerners except for that minor Dutch port and the brutal repression of Christians.

[Darryk]

WTF that just ended abruptly. Is that how the book ends?

[Arakasi]

Pretty much. The epilogue iirc was like “a month later Toranaga won at Sekigahara”. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

I've read the book (Shogun), but also based on recommendations from this very board, books by Eiji Yoshikawa (Taiko and Musashi). Since they were translations, the latter were a bit dry to me, but perhaps a good compendium to Shogun itself. Also interesting that they bookend Shogun perfectly, since Musashi is about his travels/travails post the Battle of Sekigahara.

So I wonder if you could have a series based on Musashi or at least use it as an inspiration.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

On 5/10/2024 at 9:51 PM, Nictarion said:

Sounds like we’re probably getting another season. 

https://deadline.com/2024/05/hiroyuki-sanada-deal-shogun-renewed-season-2-fx-emmys-drama-1235911076/

Not sure how I feel about this….thought it ended pretty well imho.