TrackerNeil Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 20 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Good thing that that characterization is a straw man at best. It's pretty clear you are not even attempting to understand the point of view you're arguing against. No, I think it's a real man. I've heard lefties say they might vote for Trump because of Gaza. Now, I suspect that most of these people will change their minds as November approaches, but the fact that they're even entertaining the notion says a lot about where these people are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: What the actual fuck? “The most hated ethnic group on the planet” Name an ethnic group that is as hated. The Japanese maybe although I doubt even the people who hate them in countries of Asia that have not forgotten the crimes of WW2 outnumber the people who hate the Jews in Europe, America and the Muslim world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Luzifer's right hand said: Name an ethnic group that is as hated. The Japanese maybe although I doubt even the people who hate them in countries of Asia that have not forgotten the crimes of WW2 outnumber the people who hate the Jews in Europe, America and the Muslim world. And that hate is now, has always been, and always will be invidious, unjustifiable, and noxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said: Name an ethnic group that is as hated. The Japanese maybe although I doubt even the people who hate them in countries of Asia that have not forgotten the crimes of WW2 outnumber the people who hate the Jews in Europe, America and the Muslim world. Well, question is whether you regard Jews as an ethnic or a religious group. That'd be my objection, but then again anti-semites might disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said: @Kyoshi I deeply empathize with this however we are dealing with a situation where yeah if one side wins they will seek to impose an, at minimum, a highly illiberal system, and a straight up Theocratic Regime with its moral leader a liable Rapist thrice divorce adulterer as realistically worse. I mean why not if you win after what has been shown the last 9 years. With the Democratic Party you have a chance to have a change of policy. I mean what is going in Gaza is tearing up the party. This is not going on the Republican Party and they will be rewarded for this Psychopathic and Sociopathic behavior if you do not vote for Biden and the Democratic Party. Yes, I am a Cis-Het White Male in his mid 40s so take all the grain of salt you have. The Demographics of this country is still massively White, older people vote more consistently then younger, and people in the end vote for their personal domestic reason than what for many is impersonal and far far away. Though yeah fuck anybody who feel like bullying Palestinian-Americans who had whole family and extended families wiped out, and had a experience just a zero fuck level concern of those in Gaza and WB. The Michigan Arab Community and Allies should absolutely use the Tuesday Primary to show their disgust with what going on. Oh, they will. Have no doubt. The Michigan Arab Community is quite upset with Biden, and they have the numbers and the funding to make themselves heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And that hate is now, has always been, and always will be invidious, unjustifiable, and noxious. That wasn't the question tho. You asked to name the most hated ethnic group. You didn't say name the most justifiably hated ethnic group. Which are the Brits obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Well, question is whether you regard Jews as an ethnic or a religious group. That'd be my objection, but then again anti-semites might disagree. Even the Nazis themselves did not give a shit about the religion. My family had to prove with ancestry research to keep their farm. That was law in the 3rd Reich. Rural catholic farmers from Austria. Nowadays DNA days would be used I guess. Edit: owning a farm had the same purity requirements as membership in the SS btw. Edited February 27 by Luzifer's right hand Fragile Bird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 19 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Many people here told me in 2016 that my vote for the Libertatian candidate was a vote for Trump. What has changed? And I can see your point… and still think it is terrible choice. I think that there's a difference between voting for someone who has shitty policies (the libertarian candidate) AND has no chance of electing vs. choosing not to vote for either candidate. I can't speak to people who told you that it was a vote for Trump but it was voting for a pretty crap guy on their own standing. What changed for a number of people is the feeling that we were supporting a regime that has killed 10,000 children in a 5 month period. What changed for a number of people are their family and relatives being killed in that war by munitions that were made in the US. Ultimately it comes down to what you feel is more important for you personally to support or condemn. Now that you have more skin in the game I get why you're very zealous about not voting for Trump and making sure he loses, but that was different in 2016. What changed for you? Why was it fine to throw your vote away for someone who wouldn't support a country like Ukraine in 2016, but now is not? It ain't like Trump changed who he was. For others, what changed is supporting a country that routinely flaunts international law and kills a few dozen civilians a year to supporting a country that kills 20,000 or more women and children. Shockingly that might change people's moral calculus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 14 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said: No, I think it's a real man. I've heard lefties say they might vote for Trump because of Gaza. Now, I suspect that most of these people will change their minds as November approaches, but the fact that they're even entertaining the notion says a lot about where these people are coming from. How many of these people are there possibly out there? I feel like I read and listen to a pretty large amount of lefty writers and podcasters and I haven't heard this once. I've heard plenty say they won't vote, but not once have I heard someone threaten to vote for Trump (because of Gaza or for any other reason). Eta: And there certainly hasn't been anyone in this thread arguing that. Maybe Scott's comment came out of left field and was simply coincidentally in the middle of this discussion. I took at as a seriously uncharitable and inaccurate description of the position he was arguing against. Edited February 27 by Larry of the Lawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 10 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: That wasn't the question tho. You asked to name the most hated ethnic group. You didn't say name the most justifiably hated ethnic group. Which are the Brits obviously. No. He offered the statement that a group was “the most hated” and I asked who that was. Hating any group of people ethnic or religious… as a group… is an invidious, irrational, and noxious emotion that reflects more on the individual offering such hatred than the group they say they hate. Edited February 27 by Ser Scot A Ellison kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Luzifer's right hand said: Even the Nazis themselves did not give a shit about the religion. My family had to prove with ancestry research to keep their farm. That was law in the 3rd Reich. Rural catholic farmers from Austria. Nowadays DNA days would be used I guess. Yeah, but even their researchers had trouble coming/making up the characteristic of the Jews as an ethnic group. I mean, if you feel like it, you can try to find a definition of Jews in those race laws. It was not for lack of afford that they couldn't find the physical markers they were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, A Horse Named Stranger said: Yeah, but even their researchers had trouble coming/making up the characteristic of the Jews as an ethnic group. I mean, if you feel like it, you can try to find a definition of Jews in those race laws. It was not for lack of afford that they couldn't find the physical markers they were looking for. Not a problem anymore nowadays thanks to DNA tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Kalbear said: What changed for you? Why was it fine to throw your vote away for someone who wouldn't support a country like Ukraine in 2016, but now is not? It ain't like Trump changed who he was. I believed everyone here who said it was impossible Trump would win. I saw four years of Trump and his narcissistic bullshit and his abuse of existing norms while people defended and apologized for his abuses. I watched 1/6/2021. TrackerNeil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 25 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Maybe you can understand it a different way, Scot. Let me try. A person has watched as literally dozens of their family members, relatives and people they know have been killed. They've watched the world unite against that group of people save for a few specific countries - and they happen to be living in one of those specific countries. They have the choice to vote for the person who has for their entire political career supported the policies that is leading to their families' deaths, or they can vote for someone who will do basically the same thing, or they can choose not to support either person. Could you live with the decision to vote for someone who aided in the death of your family? Could you at least understand someone for whom that is not an acceptable choice? Alright, what about those who do not have that level of personal connection? A quick Google search on Palestinan American is just over 166,000 as of 2021. That is not enough to move an election. We are dealing with many more people who have empathy for the Palestinian cause. The issue I see is that the Democratic is fighting itself over this. Yeah, the hardest Zionist have yet there is fierce debate. Compare with the near uniform silence among Republican when they are not cheering to "Kill them all". This view being the victorious one will not mean Democrats will be to go all in with the Palestinians. I mean, the support Palestinian have gotten in America has been amazing and more than I thought it would of based on the constant near silence during so many of the prior conflicts. I still do not think it is where the most common voter is. Decreasing Pro-Palestinian vote will not be for Politicians will chase those who they know will vote then does who might vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 This Palestinian American puts the issue of the upcoming elections in what I thought was a very thoughtful manner when he phoned in on The Majority Report: Kyoshi and straits 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No. He offered the statement that a group was “the most hated” and I asked who that was. Hating any group of people ethnic or religious… as a group… is an invidious, irrational, and noxious emotion that reflects more one the individual offering such hatred than the group they say they hate. Yeah, but that's missing the point. He said that Jews are so most hated ethnic group. Which is probably true. If you conducted a survey in the muslim world about which group(s) they hate. It will be Jews/Israelis and then presumably Americans. Then you have the good old fashioned Western anti-semitism. Pointing that out is not descriptive not a normative statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said: Not a problem anymore nowadays thanks to DNA tests. Sure, but I don't think any racist jackass has a DNA kit ready and to elaborate which marker on which chromosome he finds so outrageous. I think you'd rather end up having them rant on about Rothschild's globalist elites, puppet goverments etc. Which is probably more in the cultural sterotype of Jews controlling all the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Yeah, but that's missing the point. He said that Jews are so most hated ethnic group. Which is probably true. If you conducted a survey in the muslim world about which group(s) they hate. It will be Jews/Israelis and then presumably Americans. Then you have the good old fashioned Western anti-semitism. Pointing that out is not descriptive not a normative statement. That’s not okay. That will never be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I believed everyone here who said it was impossible Trump would win. I saw four years of Trump and his narcissistic bullshit and his abuse of existing norms while people defended and apologized for his abuses. I watched 1/6/2021. So, basically, Ser Scot changed his opinion based on new facts, or a new understanding of the facts. Would that we could all do the same. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Sure, but I don't think any racist jackass has a DNA kit ready and to elaborate which marker on which chromosome he finds so outrageous. I think you'd rather end up having them rant on about Rothschild's globalist elites, puppet goverments etc. Which is probably more in the cultural sterotype of Jews controlling all the money. Oh they hate. I have seen it myself with a co-worker that admitted a test showed 1/8 Jewish ancestry. Like flipping a switch and some people started to dislike him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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