US Politics: The sides have gotten… weird

[Larry of the Lawn]

17 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I think this "from the river to the sea" folks fail to understand that most Americans really don't know much about this issue--hell, I'd argue that most of the protestors don't know, either. I remember going cross-eyed reading a summary of Israeli history, and it was then I realized that nothing about that situation is simple. But if you are of a certain mindset, you think it's all cut and dried, and you cannot understand how anyone could think otherwise. Well, lots of people do...if they think about it at all. Biden is trying to walk a tightrope here, and pretending that rope isn't there doesn't mean Biden can't fall from it.

That may all be true.  But I don't believe the dissent with Biden on this issue among Dem voters is limited to, in your words, "from the river to the sea" folks.

I think it includes a lot of people who simply don't want their tax dollars funding a genocide, and don't mind saying that.  Biden might be in a tight spot, but it's irrational to think that asking voters to decide between voting for a guy who has no problem f[u]nding a genocide or the other worse guy who has no problem f[u]nding a genocide is some kind of decision that everyone is going to make quietly and happily.  

I'd imagine people who have voted before have already made similar calculations in the past, so this conundrum is nothing new.  But for some people this might not be any easy choice.  I'm thinking beyond Palestinian and Muslim voters it certainly seems to be a dilemma of some kind for Gen Z.  I get that as young voters there isn't much incentive for Biden to pursue an unreliable vote, but I absolutely can understand people being pissed with the choices they've been given.  

 

 

Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why would Netanyahu do anything that didn’t give aid and comfort to his fellow dictatorial aspirational buddy… Trump?

Because he has his own problems and getting Trump reelected is like 8th on his list of priorities.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Wasn't there also a 10-11% uncommitted vote in Michigan's primary back in 2012 with Obama on the ballot? I don't think the 13% uncommitted in Michigan in 2024 is going to seriously hurt Biden in the general - I expect that the vast majority of those who voted uncommitted will vote for Biden over Trump in the general.

The world has changed and it's changing faster every year. Yesterday's prices' aren't today's and today's won't be tomorrow's. You always have to keep that in mind. 

Edited February 28 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Consigliere]

12 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Because he has his own problems and getting Trump reelected is like 8th on his list of priorities.

 

And because it doesn't really make any substantial difference to Israel which party controls congress or who sits in the White House. Israel enjoys overwhelming support from both parties and gets their 3+ billion dollars every year regardless. So I doubt Netanyahu cares one iota whether it's President Biden or President Trump.

 

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

The world has changed and it's changing faster every year. Yesterday's price's aren't today's and today's won't be tomorrows. You always have to keep that in mind. 

Duh. Everyone knows the world is changing.

Still doesn't change my opinion i.e. the vast majority of those who voted uncommitted will pick Biden over Trump when the time comes. A small minority might choose not to vote/vote for Trump/vote for a 3rd party but I don't think it'll be enough to flip the state. Just my opinion, of course.

[Kyoshi]

16 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I think this "from the river to the sea" folks fail to understand that most Americans really don't know much about this issue--hell, I'd argue that most of the protestors don't know, either. I remember going cross-eyed reading a summary of Israeli history, and it was then I realized that nothing about that situation is simple. But if you are of a certain mindset, you think it's all cut and dried, and you cannot understand how anyone could think otherwise. Well, lots of people do...if they think about it at all. Biden is trying to walk a tightrope here, and pretending that rope isn't there doesn't mean Biden can't fall from it.

This is overly simplistic and reductive. People are protesting an unfolding genocide. And while they're doing that, they're finding out about the Apartheid their government has been supporting, about the tax dollars being sent to another country,  whose citizens enjoy such luxuries as subsidised housing, health care, etc.

Even if you remove these voters' aspirations for a free Palestine, people are rightfully pissed at their government for seemingly caring more about the welfare of a foreign country's citizens, as opposed to domestic issues. That's one of Trump's key appeals right now. He "stayed out of these endless wars and focused on good ol' America." Isn't the aid that's supposed to go to Ukraine stalled because republicans oppose it? Isn't that one of the reasons they're polling not so terribly? Regardless of the actual reason Republicans do the nonsense they do, they are able to sell it very well to their base, and to pretend that the problem is the river/sea people is reminiscent of Hilary Clinton's red flags, when Dems buried their heads in the sand, because they wanted to believe "America's sexism is our biggest problem." People weren't excited about Biden in 2020, it shouldn't be surprising that people are lower on him now.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

56 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

What I'm getting from Ty and Scot is that it's stupid and wrong to voice dissent with Joe Biden on anything.  

No, it's not, but there's a difference between being critical and full out spiking shit in protest. We're at a very dangerous moment. Idk how anyone with half a brain can't see that. And yet so many people do. If your actions only help Trump, you need only look in the mirror when things go bad and you have to own what you've done. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Duh. Everyone knows the world is changing.

Still doesn't change my opinion i.e. the vast majority of those who voted uncommitted will pick Biden over Trump when the time comes. A small minority might choose not to vote/vote for Trump/vote for a 3rd party but I don't think it'll be enough to flip the state. Just my opinion, of course.

The margins in a lot of swing states were rather small. It's enough to swing the election. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No, it's not, but there's a difference between being critical and full out spiking shit in protest. We're at a very dangerous moment. Idk how anyone with half a brain can't see that. And yet so many people do. If your actions only help Trump, you need only look in the mirror when things go bad and you have to own what you've done. 

And this is the unsatisfied qualifier that makes this argument fall apart.  

Edit: then again, we haven't even established what we're talking about.  Voting "uncommitted" in a primary?  Asking Biden to do more to stop genocide in Gaza?

I can't see how these things help Trump.  

Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn

[Gorn]

12 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

This is not voters failing the Democratic party, this is the Democratic party failing the voters by refusing to do the will of their voters.

The will of which voters? Even with the organized campaign to vote "uncommitted" in the state which is probably the most receptive of this message, it amounted to just 13% of Democratic primary voters. 81% of Democratic primary voters declared that they approve of Biden.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

And this is unsatisfied qualifier that makes this argument fall apart.  

Edit: then again, we haven't even established what we're talking about.  Voting "uncommitted" in a primary?  Asking Biden to do more to stop genocide in Gaza?

No it doesn't. We're seeing more and more people say they won't vote for Biden who come from his traditional base. That's a real fucking problem. Some are even dumb enough to say they'll vote for Trump out of spite. Meanwhile we know Republicans will rally to him. 

[Maithanet]

I would argue that if leftists feel "heard" by voting uncommitted, then they are more, not less, likely to support Biden in November. 

I really have trouble connecting the dots between "Democrats make a protest vote in a meaningless primary to voice opposition to a specific policy" and "you're handing the election to Trump."   Democrats are running as the pro-democracy party, and democracy means internal dissent and healthy debate.  This is what that looks like. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

people are rightfully pissed at their government for seemingly caring more about the welfare of a foreign country's citizens, as opposed to domestic issues. That's one of Trump's key appeals right now. He "stayed out of these endless wars and focused on good ol' America.

That’s the Lindberghish “America First” horseshit many Trumpanista’s claim to endorse… yes.  That isn’t a positive for them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I can't see how these things help Trump.  

Larry, then sincerely and without rancor… you lack imagination on this issue.  I believed the people who said in 2016 it is impossible for Trump to win.  He won.  

Trump is an existential threat to the United States.  Hurting Biden… helps Trump.  If you don’t see that at this point I’m not sure how to show you.

Edited February 28 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No it doesn't. We're seeing more and more people say they won't vote for Biden who come from his traditional base. That's a real fucking problem. Some are even dumb enough to say they'll vote for Trump out of spite. Meanwhile we know Republicans will rally to him. 

I disagree that any statistically significant part of his traditional base is going to vote for Trump out of spite.

But okay, how about voters who voted "uncommitted"?  Some are probably going to vote for Biden.  Some might not.  How are you going to get those voters back into the fold?  Are you going to tell them they're fucking dumb? 

[Maithanet]

8 minutes ago, Gorn said:

The will of which voters? Even with the organized campaign to vote "uncommitted" in the state which is probably the most receptive of this message, it amounted to just 13% of Democratic primary voters. 81% of Democratic primary voters declared that they approve of Biden.

But that argument cuts both ways.  I don't see what the big deal is that 13% of democratic primary voters wanted to express their political opinion.  Perhaps the DNC and Biden can devote more resources to communicating with them about why they should vote for Biden in November.  It's a helluva lot better to get a signal where you stand now than Nov 5. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Larry, then sincerely and without rancor… you lack imagination on this issue.  I believed the people who said in 2016 it is impossible for Trump to win.  He won.  

Trump is an existential threat to the United States.  If you don’t see that at this poiny I’m not sure how to show you.

 

Non sequitur much?  Trump being an existential threat is WHY you have to address this shit and let people talk and use what democratic tools they have.  

Sorry, I'm not chasing gonna start chasing bogeymen and being scared of my own shadow. 

I'm not saying he can't win.  I'm saying that voting uncommitted and criticizing Biden on Gaza do not help Trump.  These are things on people's minds and if you sweep it under the rug or try to crush it it's not going to go away.  I'm saying that crushing public discourse and the democratic process is certainly not going to help. 

Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn
Spelling

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But that argument cuts both ways.  I don't see what the big deal is that 13% of democratic primary voters wanted to express their political opinion.  Perhaps the DNC and Biden can devote more resources to communicating with them about why they should vote for Biden in November.  It's a helluva lot better to get a signal where you stand now than Nov 5. 

Not to mention, they showed up and voted in a primary where they knew Biden was going to win anyway.  They didn't change their registrations to Green or GOP.  They used the mechanism available to them to steer their party of choice.  

 

Edited February 28 by Larry of the Lawn

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

I disagree that any statistically significant part of his traditional base is going to vote for Trump out of spite.

But okay, how about voters who voted "uncommitted"?  Some are probably going to vote for Biden.  Some might not.  How are you going to get those voters back into the fold?  Are you going to tell them they're fucking dumb? 

You don't tell them they're dumb, you approach them knowing most of them are. Then you calmly explain the situation and how their actions could actually make things worse. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

You don't tell them they're dumb, you approach them knowing most of them are. Then you calmly explain the situation and how their actions could actually make things worse. 

I think you give people too little credit.  People don't like to be treated like they're stupid.  Some are, some aren't.  This is something Trump gets that a lot of DC types don't understand.  I think it's a mistake to underestimate people.  Just because you don't understand the reasoning doesn't mean it's stupid or dumb.  

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Gorn said:

The will of which voters? Even with the organized campaign to vote "uncommitted" in the state which is probably the most receptive of this message, it amounted to just 13% of Democratic primary voters. 81% of Democratic primary voters declared that they approve of Biden.

Given that their goal was to get 10% it seems they were successful.