International Events : How I learnt to stop worrying and love the-

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Kal, what the fuck are you trying to say here? 

What I actually said. What the fuck are you trying to say - that you can declare that you are going to eradicate Hamas but keep their leadership alive? How the fuck does that make any sense?

19 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Hamas, the organization -the structure of the thing- is IN GAZA. It will be eradicated as a functioning entity. Hamas' leadership being abroad is a continued problem, but Hamas' leadership being abroad with their organization intact is a much bigger problem and one that can be addressed by fighting Hamas where it is... in Gaza.

Then maybe don't say 'eradicate Hamas' as your goal? Especially if they're not just in Gaza - they're in the West Bank, they're in Qatar, they're in Egypt, they're probably in Lebanon and Syria and Iraq? 

Like I said, you're into empty platitudes and slogans, and that AFC South championship banner is Very Important. 

[Jace, Extat]

"Stop. Regroup." - For what? Hamas has to go, and that means fighting them out of the last building and to the last man. 

The idea that Israel is supposed to tolerate Hamas as an entity continuing to exist inside Gaza is absurd.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

"Stop. Regroup." - For what? Hamas has to go, and that means fighting them out of the last building and to the last man.

Presumably you do that so that you aren't just randomly killing aid workers and 5 month old babies while not achieving much operationally. 

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

The idea that Israel is supposed to tolerate Hamas as an entity continuing to exist inside Gaza is absurd.

That isn't what is being argued and is again a silly thing to say. Should we also do  the same thing - say that Israel shouldn't support killing every Palestinian on the planet? It's roughly equivalent. 

[Zorral]

12 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

The idea that Israel is supposed to tolerate Hamas as an entity continuing to exist inside Gaza is absurd.

It would be far more useful and effective for both us and Israel to seriously look at why Hamas got to be there and an entity at all.

But that, neither you, the media, and so many others refuse to even allow to have happened.  Erasure of history.  We haz it in spades.  We don't need to go back as far as the mythological Jewish captivity in Egypt, just to, well, 1947-48.

Edited May 1 by Zorral

[Jace, Extat]

Then what is Israel supposed to DO??!!??

Are they supposed to deliver ultimatums to Egypt and Qatar - deliver the Hamas leadership or war?

 

[Zorral]

Say sorry.  We effed up. We won't keep treating Palestinians like vermin, and will certainly remove the settler movement from the West Bank. For starters.

 

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

It would be far more useful and effective for both us and Israel to seriously look at why Hamas got to be there and an entity at all.

But that, neither you, the media, and so many others refuse to even allow to have happened.  Erasure of history.  We haz it in spades.  We don't need to go back as far as the mythological Jewish captivity in Egypt, just to, well, 1947-48.

Israel exists. 

To borrow a line from Politics Thread:

Deal with it.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

"Stop. Regroup." - For what? Hamas has to go, and that means fighting them out of the last building and to the last man. 

The idea that Israel is supposed to tolerate Hamas as an entity continuing to exist inside Gaza is absurd.

For exactly the unthinking reaction you just expressed.  Thanks for demonstrating my point.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Jace, Extat said:

Then what is Israel supposed to DO??!!??

Are they supposed to deliver ultimatums to Egypt and Qatar - deliver the Hamas leadership or war?

There have been so many varied suggestions. You've shot them all down. I'm not sure how valuable it would be to reiterate them again. But I'll try a bit.

• You need to actually state what the goal of the war is. "eradicating Hamas' is not a goal that is either achievable or reasonable any more than a war on drugs or terror is. It is a slogan. If Israel wants to take full operational control over the Gaza strip that is at least closer, though probably unwise as a goal - but at least it is feasible. 
• You need to choose what your timeline is, and what the costs and benefits of doing it faster or slower are. Right now there is very little operational value in going fast. There is little chance of any reasonable rearming or fortification that cannot be stopped ahead of time, there is no actual momentum to be had, there is no chance of catching leaders on the battlefield or causing extra damage because of speed, there is no surprise. There is no particular active threat to Israeli people from Hamas, at least from Gaza. Therefore, you can afford to take significant time to get it right. That might be not as viable politically but that isn't a great reason to keep up civilian bombardment. 
• You need to decide what your costs are going to be. Destroying your allies relationships is a risk. That said, Israeli's government probably is in the right in the sense that anything they do to keep the war painful to Palestinians makes it more likely that they will have a more friendly government in power in most places at very little cost to them, so it makes political sense to continue as they are. 
• Finally, you need an actual exit strategy. When are you actually done? Again, 'eradicate Hamas' is not an exit goal or at least isn't an achievable one. 

So what should Israel do?

• Evacuate the Palestinians in Gaza to Israel while the war is going on. Removing them to Egypt and Jordan has too much of a historical burden and putting them in Israel allows Israel to maintain maximum operational security on those people while ensuring that Israel likely doesn't want to keep them there. 
• Focus on destroying important infrastructure after evacuation. Even if that means significantly long lag time between warning and striking. The goal is to dismantle the actual structures in place in Gaza first and foremost. The people will come eventually, but it's a lot easier to deal with the enemy when they no longer have places to hide
• Start immediately working towards a postwar Gaza. 
• Give up more than what you need to get back the hostages so you can then focus on dealing with the remainder. As long as you aren't having to accept a full indefinite cease fire almost anything should be on the table.
• Stop fucking off and attacking Iran. Geezus, read Sun Tzu or something

 

[Rippounet]

12 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You need to actually state what the goal of the war is. "eradicating Hamas' is not a goal that is either achievable or reasonable any more than a war on drugs or terror is. It is a slogan.

I was about to post something like this.

Hamas was never a formal military, it's something between a terrorist organisation and an insurgency. So unless you can formulate clear military objectives, "eliminating Hamas" basically means killing every single adult Palestinian - and a lot of the kids too.

Which is what we've seen for over six months now. And there were quite a few of us, in the wake of Oct 7th, that saw how dangerous it was that the objectives formulated by the Israeli government were so vague. Quite obviously, we had doubts that Israeli forces would exercise restraint.
Because anyone with a functional brain understands that "eliminating" an insurgency means genocide. Or, if one doesn't like the g-word, we can talk about massacre, slaughter, war crimes, crimes against humanity... etc. Basically everything Israel under Netanyahu has done in the past 6+ months, which was entirely predictable of course.

[DMC]

It is very strange when Ripp, Kal, and myself all agree.  If Paul Thomas Anderson was directing this, this would be when frogs fall from the sky.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

It is very strange when Ripp, Kal, and myself all agree.  If Paul Thomas Anderson was directing this, this would be when frogs fall from the sky.

NOW KISS

[Conflicting Thought]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I was about to post something like this.

Hamas was never a formal military, it's something between a terrorist organisation and an insurgency. So unless you can formulate clear military objectives, "eliminating Hamas" basically means killing every single adult Palestinian - and a lot of the kids too.

Which is what we've seen for over six months now. And there were quite a few of us, in the wake of Oct 7th, that saw how dangerous it was that the objectives formulated by the Israeli government were so vague. Quite obviously, we had doubts that Israeli forces would exercise restraint.
Because anyone with a functional brain understands that "eliminating" an insurgency means genocide. Or, if one doesn't like the g-word, we can talk about massacre, slaughter, war crimes, crimes against humanity... etc. Basically everything Israel under Netanyahu has done in the past 6+ months, which was entirely predictable of course.

Thats why israel says they have killed 17 thousand (aprox) "hamas fighters"  wich just so happens to be every adult male that has been killed so far. Its insane.

[DMC]

Just now, Kalbear said:

NOW KISS

I prefer when they all randomly start singing in their own storylines.  It’s so ridiculous.  Man now I wanna watch Magnolia.  Fuck you Hamas.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I prefer when they all randomly start singing in their own storylines.  It’s so ridiculous.  Man now I wanna watch Magnolia.  Fuck you Hamas.

FUCK YOU I'M A GREAT KISSER

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

FUCK YOU I'M A GREAT KISSER

We’ll see.

[DMC]

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

FUCK YOU I'M A GREAT KISSER

BTW, gotta be honest, have had my eyes on Ripp for quite some time now.  Something about that French socialism is exotic and I think we can build on that to satisfy my needs.

[Rippounet]

My pillow talk is revolutionary.

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, Hmmm said:

The conflicts in question revolve around whether Ukraine and Taiwan should be allowed to keep existing as independent states or not. Do you think the West is wrong regarding where it stands there? Regarding what in particular, then? 

I'm talking about entire decades of meddling into affairs, poking noses with shitty excuses. Not just contemporary events. And Western policy isn't just as simple as recognising them as independent states. 

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

Ok.  Given the other posts in this thread about the cycle of violence, this is a very ironic post

This is the third time you're being obtuse when I wasn't abstruse. 

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

I think you are saying that an escalated war will "solve" the problem and that the armaments industry will no longer have any weapons to sell because there will be peace in our time

NO, I'M NOT SAYING ANY OF THE BS YOU SPOUT IN MY NAME. READ MY [REDACTED] POSTS. IM OUT OF PATIENCE DEALING WITH MORONIC ARGUMENTS. 

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

Which is frankly hilarious

WHATS [REDACTED] HILARIOUS IS AN EIGHTH GRADER COULD UNDERSTAND MY POSTS BETTER THAN THE [----] YOU COME UP WITH TIME AND AGAIN.

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

But at least I see now where you are coming from, so thanks for explaining

WT* IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN!

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

To be clear, the cycle of violence rarely stops.  War begets more war.  I can't think of any major conflict at the moment where I expect a resolution will lead to a complete de-escalation.  The military industrial complex doesn't have to lose any sleep about a loss of earnings.

IM SURE THEY HAVE SWEET DREAMS THANKS TO YOUR REASSURANCE. 

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

Sure.  I was hoping you were been less vague but ok

AGAIN THAT [REDACTED] WORD. IF I TALK ABOUT RAPE AS A GLOBALLY OCCURING PHENOMENON I'D LIKE WIPED OUT, WOULD YOU WANT THE DETAILS OF EVERY SINGLE PERPETRATOR AND VICTIM AND THE MO AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ROOT CAUSE AND TRAUMATIC AFTER EFFECTS AND EVERY OTHER DAMN SPECIFIC?

BUT GIVEN YOUR HISTORY OF UNDERSTANDING ANALOGIES, GO AHEAD AND NEVER MIND. BETTER THAN YOUR FRUSTRATING MISINTERPRETATIONS WITH THAT INEXPLICABLE CERTAINTY.

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

I was talking about both.  Larder (the West) and appetite (Russia but there are plenty other countries).

AT THIS POINT I GIVE UP

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

just echoes my point about the West having way more means to negatively affect other countries.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO RUSSIA BEING MORE MORALLY EVIL AND THUS MORE DANGEROUS. STICK TO A STANCE DAMMIT.

Edited May 2 by TheLastWolf
Replaced expletives with CAPS, enough bans I've got responding to stupidity